What do you guys think about this? Real or fake?
Krieghoff #1
krieghoff88
- Status
141 - 160 of 204 Posts
Joined
·
4,033 Posts
Okay then, you wanted a justification of the term "refreshed"? Here it is (on the left is sn 95 in Legacy's video and on the right is sn 95 in Still's book, p.263; D. Hallock collection).
Oh, you want more proof? Here is more (the left picture is from Tom's book, p.62).The picture on the right is sn95 [before the "refresh"]
and I will rest my case with this nice "restoration" image of the same gun.
Joined
·
19,226 Posts
ok, this is over
For the record, I have absolute faith in my Father-in-law's story about how he obtained his Luger during the war. The ordnance officer of a B-26 squadron, his war started in England, moved to France after D-Day, then Belgium and ended in Germany where he "captured" his 1916 DWM P.08. He picked it out of a large pile of surrendered pistols and picked up a holster from the holster pile.
Joined
·
1,538 Posts
Since "mhassoun" has requested my response to his findings on #95 I would be happy to respond to him.
As to the photographic evidence, I can't dispute it. I think we can agree that the lighting on the earlier photo is very bad so a side by side comparison is difficult in some areas. But I would also have to say that some areas have clearly been touched up. No, I wont say the whole gun was refinished as some of the wear is exactly the same in both photos. But there is no question that some of the areas are touched up. I know finishes pretty well, but I do get fooled sometimes. I've never offered the gun for sale and I still like the gun. If I ever do offer it for sale I will say that some of the areas on the gun have been touched up. I have not problem saying that as the gun is SO rare, a buyer will be happy with ANY example. I have no need to embellish the gun. Earlier photos were taken prior to 1988 by the way.
Why didnt I know that? Good question. It's been in my safe for over 10 years and I pull it out to clean and organize about 1 X per year and I honestly did not do the photo comparison before. Again, I want to represent the gun honestly and there was no intent on my end to mis-represent the piece. Again, I like the gun and am not offering it for sale. I showed the gun to several experts at the time I bought it and everyone gave positive feedback. I know Doug Smith was there, Tom Armstrong and George Anderson. The first two are now deceased and George may or may not remember. I believe the date was about 2008 or 2009.
Did I do the touch up? This seems to be implied in this thread as well as others; that I am in some way enhancing guns. I am about as lame as any man can be when it comes to fixing or "freshening" guns. I personally have never reblued or restrawed a gun. People ask me often as to where they can get a gun restored. If you have asked me, you will know that I say "I don't know anyone." I just don't have time for "projects". I used Thor maybe once about 15 years ago, and I have seen him recommended on this forum. I also used Gale Morgan on 2 guns about 8 - 10 years ago, and I sold them both as "Morgan restorations". If you ask him he will verify that, but he has generally not been taking new projects in a long time. I remember one was a Low Grip Screw HSc. Dont remember the other. I did not touch up the gun.
Where is the other #95.? The person who had the other #95 was told about our observations. He took the gun back and I have not seen or heard of it again. It might still be out there, but I doubt it.
What about HK #01? At the show I appraised the gun to be worth between 40 -50k. Weeks later the owner came up with 130k because someone told him it was "6 figure" gun. I told him that I disagreed but wanted to do the video and agreed to list the gun as a consignment. I'm still glad I did the video as it is very useful to educate the public. I pointed out specific differences in the finish, the markings, the straw, but then let the viewer decide for themselves. I'm definitely not pushing the gun on anyone. No Novice collector is going to buy this gun. But I have gotten offers from advanced collectors. I have encouraged those people to read this forum thread even though I don't think the level of negativity was warranted. I still want any buyer to be fully informed and then to decide for themselves.
Am I a greedy bastard? I don't think so. I don't care if I sell the gun or not. I don't take a salary from Legacy and dont share in the profits. The business is owned in trust to my kids and a good portion goes to charity. I have not done a gun listing on my website in years. I have 7 young employees who are doing a great job listing and selling guns. Since I bought G code #95 we have sold over 24,000 guns and we have about 10,000 satisfied customers. Our return rate is about 2%. That is even more significant when you realize that about 5-6 customers account for 85% of the returns. If you are not happy with a purchase we will refund your money; no reason even needed. How many collectors / dealers can match that track record.?
My focus now is on the educational videos. Our audience on Youtube has an average age of 30. And on Instagram it is 25. We have about 170,000 subscribers. Who is going to buy your collection when you are ready to let it go? These subscribers are the future buyers. !
As to the photographic evidence, I can't dispute it. I think we can agree that the lighting on the earlier photo is very bad so a side by side comparison is difficult in some areas. But I would also have to say that some areas have clearly been touched up. No, I wont say the whole gun was refinished as some of the wear is exactly the same in both photos. But there is no question that some of the areas are touched up. I know finishes pretty well, but I do get fooled sometimes. I've never offered the gun for sale and I still like the gun. If I ever do offer it for sale I will say that some of the areas on the gun have been touched up. I have not problem saying that as the gun is SO rare, a buyer will be happy with ANY example. I have no need to embellish the gun. Earlier photos were taken prior to 1988 by the way.
Why didnt I know that? Good question. It's been in my safe for over 10 years and I pull it out to clean and organize about 1 X per year and I honestly did not do the photo comparison before. Again, I want to represent the gun honestly and there was no intent on my end to mis-represent the piece. Again, I like the gun and am not offering it for sale. I showed the gun to several experts at the time I bought it and everyone gave positive feedback. I know Doug Smith was there, Tom Armstrong and George Anderson. The first two are now deceased and George may or may not remember. I believe the date was about 2008 or 2009.
Did I do the touch up? This seems to be implied in this thread as well as others; that I am in some way enhancing guns. I am about as lame as any man can be when it comes to fixing or "freshening" guns. I personally have never reblued or restrawed a gun. People ask me often as to where they can get a gun restored. If you have asked me, you will know that I say "I don't know anyone." I just don't have time for "projects". I used Thor maybe once about 15 years ago, and I have seen him recommended on this forum. I also used Gale Morgan on 2 guns about 8 - 10 years ago, and I sold them both as "Morgan restorations". If you ask him he will verify that, but he has generally not been taking new projects in a long time. I remember one was a Low Grip Screw HSc. Dont remember the other. I did not touch up the gun.
Where is the other #95.? The person who had the other #95 was told about our observations. He took the gun back and I have not seen or heard of it again. It might still be out there, but I doubt it.
What about HK #01? At the show I appraised the gun to be worth between 40 -50k. Weeks later the owner came up with 130k because someone told him it was "6 figure" gun. I told him that I disagreed but wanted to do the video and agreed to list the gun as a consignment. I'm still glad I did the video as it is very useful to educate the public. I pointed out specific differences in the finish, the markings, the straw, but then let the viewer decide for themselves. I'm definitely not pushing the gun on anyone. No Novice collector is going to buy this gun. But I have gotten offers from advanced collectors. I have encouraged those people to read this forum thread even though I don't think the level of negativity was warranted. I still want any buyer to be fully informed and then to decide for themselves.
Am I a greedy bastard? I don't think so. I don't care if I sell the gun or not. I don't take a salary from Legacy and dont share in the profits. The business is owned in trust to my kids and a good portion goes to charity. I have not done a gun listing on my website in years. I have 7 young employees who are doing a great job listing and selling guns. Since I bought G code #95 we have sold over 24,000 guns and we have about 10,000 satisfied customers. Our return rate is about 2%. That is even more significant when you realize that about 5-6 customers account for 85% of the returns. If you are not happy with a purchase we will refund your money; no reason even needed. How many collectors / dealers can match that track record.?
My focus now is on the educational videos. Our audience on Youtube has an average age of 30. And on Instagram it is 25. We have about 170,000 subscribers. Who is going to buy your collection when you are ready to let it go? These subscribers are the future buyers. !
Joined
·
19,226 Posts
I opened this up for Tom to post (although he is still a moderator in this section from around 2010, if you noticed)
I know I shouldn’t comment … Tom is an important part of our community. I appreciate his contributions and think he and Legacy are top notch 😎
Tom and his YouTube videos are the reason I became interested in the Luger. I’m glad to be introduced to the space at a young age. I will hopefully have a lifetime of collecting ahead of me.
Thank you Tom for your content, Legacy will definitely see my patronage in the future
Joined
·
1,597 Posts
To put it bluntly, Tom always done me right in selling his product to me and also gave me a fair price in what he sold for me or a few trades. And the one time he overlooked a problem (due to the item came to him from a good collector) and refunded my money.
Happy Hunting!
Peter
Happy Hunting!
Peter
Joined
·
4,033 Posts
Ed: Thank you for opening this thread so I can respond to Tom.
Tom: I will be very brief. I do appreciate your transparency on the issues raised by me and others regarding your HK G date sn95. I should say that I do watch and enjoy your videos, and I do enjoy your "unique" sense of humor (we PhDs are alike: awkwardly funny).
Mohamad Hassoun
Joined
·
105 Posts
I also support Tom. He is honest and a kind man who takes care of people. I have bought about 200 items from him in 20 years. And yes I am one of the 5-6 guys that return many times since I am a perfectionist. But that proves I have tested Tom's honesty to accept guns back again - to the limit. He does not personally get involved these days and his new team is learning fast. Perfection is not an issue - mistakes happen. But this "01" is correct in every way as far as I can see from the video. The vitriol on this forum is breathtaking. It is an historic gun. It looks right. No faker would place a sloppy "0" on to a perfect '1". That would just give the game away. And the "0" is the one with the halo - and halos only come with age. So its not a fake "0". It was just added after the blue. Man thats so clear. It thus was ALWAYS a serial number "1" gun.
Clearly the "0" was added by Krieghoff as an afterthought back in the day 1935 - since this was their first production - and its all up in the air how they would finalize their serial process - and their production details.
The gun is real.
Its just a shame that a real gun gets its value reduced by these knee-jerk reactions on a gun no one has held in their hand. Sofa and armchair experts are the irresponsibility here - not the facts.
Clearly the "0" was added by Krieghoff as an afterthought back in the day 1935 - since this was their first production - and its all up in the air how they would finalize their serial process - and their production details.
The gun is real.
Its just a shame that a real gun gets its value reduced by these knee-jerk reactions on a gun no one has held in their hand. Sofa and armchair experts are the irresponsibility here - not the facts.
Joined
·
7,133 Posts
What I see is lack of context, lack of research and a fantasy price on a questionable HK.
Pretending or stating this is real and correct without any further documentation is unadvisable and unprofessional.
Mark-P38, watch your language. Opinions are fine, but your final comments are pretty close to insults.
Pretending or stating this is real and correct without any further documentation is unadvisable and unprofessional.
Mark-P38, watch your language. Opinions are fine, but your final comments are pretty close to insults.
Joined
·
105 Posts
There is no paper documentation - never will be. It is what it is. So why insist upon documentation? Few guns covered on this forum eve have had paper documentaion. So there should be a wide and respectful discussion of both sides - not just one side - thats my point. THere is much to be said in favor of what we are seeing. The guy that found it in the 1980s was an honest guy - and not a luger guy. Thats says alot to me.
"Halos only come with age" I have stamped blued metal parts to test this theory and in my results the halos appeared instantly. But mine was not a controlled scientific experiment. More data needed on this question.
About Tom, he is a gun dealer and promotes his items for sale. I have both bought and sold to him. He once refunded my returned item without hesitation. I think some here don't realize the difference between a collector/researcher and a dealer. Two different roles in the hobby.
About Tom, he is a gun dealer and promotes his items for sale. I have both bought and sold to him. He once refunded my returned item without hesitation. I think some here don't realize the difference between a collector/researcher and a dealer. Two different roles in the hobby.
Joined
·
4,033 Posts
As for the story of the "01" ... if the first numbered P.08 produced by HK is a "prototype" (which might as well be) why in the world would it end up strapped to the body of a dead German soldier in close range battlefield?! Unless "stories" end up having a life of their own.
As I stated before, the exchange of ideas/opinions on this forum is very health and very educational. But, there is no need for attacking or ridiculing the opinions of others. Enjoy!
As I stated before, the exchange of ideas/opinions on this forum is very health and very educational. But, there is no need for attacking or ridiculing the opinions of others. Enjoy!
Joined
·
1,597 Posts
Forget about the stories, make sure to inspect the pistol and if your happy with conclusion of the inspection buy it or make a offer or walk away. End of story!
Happy Hunting!
Peter
Happy Hunting!
Peter
Joined
·
7,133 Posts
The "there is no documentation" myth is just that: a myth.
Truth is many just prefer to take shortcuts rather than do research and chase paperwork.
Even funnier when one realizes that most of the captured German paperwork ended up in American state archives.
Plus by studying material from other companies helps to understand what went on in general. One thing is certain: contract pistols nr. 1 do not get issued to the first soldier who happens to walk past. These guns usually stay in a reference collection at the department that ordered them.
Not to be compared with number ones in blocks of 10.000, of course.
Truth is many just prefer to take shortcuts rather than do research and chase paperwork.
Even funnier when one realizes that most of the captured German paperwork ended up in American state archives.
Plus by studying material from other companies helps to understand what went on in general. One thing is certain: contract pistols nr. 1 do not get issued to the first soldier who happens to walk past. These guns usually stay in a reference collection at the department that ordered them.
Not to be compared with number ones in blocks of 10.000, of course.
So let me get this straight:
There are two #95 guns, one of which is a phantom that has vanished for years. No one has pictures of it that can show them here. The owner of the phantom is MIA too. People believed - wrongly - that this phantom gun was actually the worn one shown is shown in the pictures above, and that pretty 95 was a different gun, also shown in the pictures above.
However, this worn gun is actually the pretty 95 before some sort of treatment to its finish. So the photos of worn gun and pretty gun are actually the same gun, but no one has photos of phantom 95, no one can show photos of the phantom and pretty 95s together at the same place at the same time.
This is the story, right? I just want to make sure I understand it right.
Please correct me if I am wrong. I want to make sure I understand this confusion.
141 - 160 of 204 Posts
- Status
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
