Jan C. Still Lugerforums banner
1 - 20 of 24 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi guys I was given a luger by my father to try and find some info on. First of all it is a bring back of WWII with import papers dated 11/22/45 with the soilders name.
Its is a DWM ser#123 all matching #'s the finish is in excellent condition with 3 small wear spots to the bluing on the barrel crown and on the 2 foward corners of the slide in frt. of the trigger. It has some gold plated parts that I'm told is called wheating.The safty has gold wheating and above it it says RUST w/ an arrow pointing to the right. The only markings other than the DWM is a star in a circle above a capitol N this mark is on the barrel as well as the left hand side of the slide in frt of thr tigger. Their are no stamping on the right side near the barrel. Their is no grip safety but their is a dove tail on the back bottom of the grip, looks like a stock mount. All of the pin backs are that gold ie: mag release the lever to take the pistol apartand the bar on the side of the slide are all that gold oh and the trigger. I'm sorry for not knowing the part names but this is the first luger I have seen up close.would like as much help as posible. I have to take some pics to post.

Would also like any info on price thanks alot
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
4,971 Posts
Hi,

Your DWM is a Dutch Navy Contract luger and The bringback papers probably state that it came from a Japanese or Indonesian source (the star mark was added by the Indonesian freedom forces).
The pistol was known as the 'Pistool Automatisch No. 1' (automatic pistol, number one).

During 1942 the Japanese took over the Dutch East Indies colonies and both Japanese soldiers and Indonesian citizens walked out with many of these guns. This particular DWM labeled gun was a Dutch Navy issue, as they lacked the grip safety but had a stock lug (Dutch KNIL lugers had grip safeties and no stock lug). It was delivered to the Dutch government in February, 1929 by BKIW (DWM's name between 1922 and 1933).

The gold pieces are commonly known as 'strawed' (a form of heat treating).

There is an excellent book discussing this variation called 'The Dutch Luger' by Bas Martens and Guus de Vries (ISBN 0-935554-07-6)
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
15,091 Posts
Mark, I would be interested in hearing more of the story of how your father aquired it? {I collect stories and pictures of bring backs for a booklet I have}

I was a bit surprised to read Vlims posting, as I just read the first couple of lines of yours, then saw his! The reason is, is that I like the Dutch guns, there were (approx) less than 14,000 made for the dutch, so yours is one of the more less likely to come across. I would love to see photos of it?

If you have any trouble posting photos, which is very easy here, then e-mail them to me and I'll help.

[email protected]

Ed
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,166 Posts
Mark,

Your pistol is rare in being from a small contract (only 1,484 made) and that it survived usually hard duty in tropical Indonesia...your # 123 is an early gun in that contract-run of pistols.

Congratulations on a nice Dutch luger...please do post photos when you can...

You can visit the Simpson web site for an idea of Dutch luger values (please keep in mind this is a dealer with dealer prices that tend to be higher than private party gun sales)...yours seems like the last offering on this web page :

http://www.simpsonltd.com/LugerRoom/Dutch/dutch_lugers.htm

Value varies based on % of original blue and straw remaining...and whether all parts are original, matching serial numbers or not...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Hi guys thanks alot for the info. I am taking pictures tonite and will try to post them later. You all seem to agree the the pistol is dutch from the phill. but here is a kicker the pistol was brought back from theEuropean theater, my father says that the soilder got it off an officer in germany. I have the certificate from the HQ US Forces European theaterthat lists the pistol and a still projector.
As well as a customs certificate dated a month or so later of the same year. so it seems it was in germany. How or why ? who knows.I will post picts of the doc with block outs to protect my self. and photos of the pistol. My camera isnt the best for close ups but I will try. After I post the picts can someone give me an est.of value for insurance. thanks again for all your help
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
15,091 Posts
There were guns dated 1940 that were never sent to holland, since holland (the Netherlands) was taken over by the Germans and thus the contracted guns were issued instead to the German Army.

From Weimar Lugers; Mauser mfg 1940, C/U or German Army test proof, E/655 on the right receiver (eagle / 655). The serial range would be from 2655v-3254v.

Pictures and further description would help some more, as the marking you stated, sounds like the Indonesean markings that Gerben commented on.

Ed
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·

·
Platinum Bullet member
Joined
·
2,726 Posts
This Dutch appears to be the "real" thing, as documented on pages 142-144 of the "Dutch Luger", by Martens & de Vries. As Pete Ebbink stated, only 1484 were made between 1928-29. This number 123 was obviously early in the series. The pristine condition of this beautiful specimen would lead me to suspect that it somehow never went to southeast Asia and stayed behind somehow. The later Mauser contract pieces that were seized by the Germans after the outbreak of WW2 had Mauser banners on the toggle. A great find. One doesn't see such a nice example of a Dutch luger very often, much less without the grip safety. My guess it's value would be somewhere over $2K and under $3K. Are any of its accessories (holster, take down tool, etc.) still with the pistol?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
All I know is it was taken off an officer. all I have is the papers, pistol and a mag that appears to be stainless w/ an alum. bottom. But it doesnt match the pistol. My father is going to ask the person he bought if she has any other items for the pistol. She implyed that she might have the holster and belt, if she does would the tool be mounted in the holster? and where?
 

·
Platinum Bullet member
Joined
·
2,726 Posts
Dear Flowboy143, if you can get its original holster, hopefully Dutch, it would increase the value of this piece further. Dutch holsters look different than German made militaries and usually have a metal clamping device and not a buckle to close the flap. The tool should fit into a pouch inside the flap part of the holster. Again, let us all know as this may be a very interesting and desirable Navy Dutch luger rig.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,166 Posts
Mark...

Just a WAG on my part...but this gun may have stayed in the Netherlands with an officer (i.e. lack of brass side plate with unit markings...) and then may have been captured by the German army when Holland was occupied and dis-armed....or taken as war booty by a German soldier...

Really nice gun...I have seen such sell (in the USA) well over $ 3.5K recently in this condition...
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
4,971 Posts
Hi,

I'm really surprised that this gun was taken from a German officer (in Germany?). The 'star' mark is commonly known to be added by the Indonesians, hence the indonesian link.

Since this is a Navy variation and not a KNIL version, it can be ceized in the Netherlands, and also a large number of KNIL/Navy soldiers stationed in the Netherlands have fought during the early days of the German invasion.

Please note that the Dutch Navy lugers also came in normal German P08 style holsters, as opposed to the typical KNIL type holsters.

I would like to see some photo's that clearly show the 'star' mark you described. Can it be that you mistook the 'Crown' symbol above the N for a 'star' symbol?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
NO it is deffenitly a star in a circle above the N. My camera will not zoom in close & keep a clear pic. I and the gunsmith have both confirmed it to be a star & not a crown. My father is waiting for the woman who he bought the pistol off of to return from vacation to ask if their is a holster
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
15,091 Posts

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
4,971 Posts
Flowboy143,

Trust me, It's a symbol commonly known as the Crown/N (crown above N) proof mark.
This crown resembles a pentagon in a circle and may be interpreted as a 'star in circle'.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Vlim I have looked at it thru a magnifing glass and it is a star in a circle over the letter N. it in no way looks like a crown. My gunsmith agrees with me. the N in the third pic is the same but the symbol above it is quite different.
I am tring to get better pics of the markings to post and prove my point. I thank you all for your input. As of yet I have not heard from my father if the woman has any more acces. for this pistol.
My father may be will to sell this pistol, as for $$ he is unsure.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Vlim I have looked at it thru a magnifing glass and it is a star in a circle over the letter N. it in no way looks like a crown. My gunsmith agrees with me. the N in the third pic is the same but the symbol above it is quite different.
I am tring to get better pics of the markings to post and prove my point. I thank you all for your input. As of yet I have not heard from my father if the woman has any more acces. for this pistol.
My father may be will to sell this pistol, as for $$ he is unsure.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
15,091 Posts
As they used the acceptance and proofs, the dies would get worn, so, it is possible that they were worn or even broken dies? Good clear pictures would probably lay to rest any doubt, either way.

Ed
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
15,091 Posts
As they used the acceptance and proofs, the dies would get worn, so, it is possible that they were worn or even broken dies? Good clear pictures would probably lay to rest any doubt, either way.

Ed
 
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top