[Ron Smith]

I received this today. A 1908 1st Issue with unit mark. It's all matching, with the commercial style hidden numbers. Hold open added, and proper un-numbered grips, in very nice condition. According to reported ser#'s , this 4807 b is 21 from the highest reported number of 4828 b. Out of 25,000 produced.

The unfortunate part is that it has been reblued and restrawed.

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Proofs on Ist issues were somewhat shallow to begin with. After refinish. These are still visible and ledgable.

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Mag is proper, but appears force matched.

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This the reason I bought it. Unit marked 12th Jaeger Regiment. No company # Weapon #10. According to Jeff Noll this is a scarce , if not rare marking. It is a Staff pistol, never assigned to a company, which accounts for the lack of Company number.

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It's rather sad to see such a fine old piece reblued, but judging from the tiny bits of pepper pitting that are still visible in spots and on the barrel. The old warrior needed some help. And whomever salvaged her did'nt do too bad of a job. At least they tried to be gentle. I wish, I wish....
Ron

 

[Edward Tinker]

Nice Ron, I believe it is far better to have an example, than not have one.

Good find,

Ed

 

[Ron Smith]

Ed, I almost passed on it, but with alittle coaching from George, who's sole goal in life is to see me on the verge of bankruptcy, so I'll have to sell him my collection, I went ahead and bought it.
He is now in my will.
Thanks, Ron

 

[drbuster]

Ron, I was under the impression that the serial numbers on the magazine bottom ran perpendicular, not parallel, to the clip handles on these early models. At least the ones on my First Issue do.

 

[Ron Smith]

I believe they did too. As I said ,I would assume this is a forced or homemade ser#. Although done with European style number dies.
Ron

 

[Edward Tinker]

Ron, Herb and others, I would like a lesson on numbering on bases please.

What years were numbered what way? If you can point me to the right book, I will look it up?

Ed

 

[drbuster]

Ed, glad to oblige. Pages 81-82 of Jan's Imperial Lugers state that the early DWM wooden bottom magazines were numbered with large numbers running perpendicular to the gripging handles without any letter suffix. This included 1908 through 1911 production until the "e" suffix. At this point the "e" is stamped below the large numbers. Starting with 1912 production and continuing through 1918, the serial numbers are smaller, stamped parallel to the gripping handles and contain the letter suffix. All Erfurt lugers have the serial numbers stamped in small fonts parallel to the gripping handles.

 

[Jan C Still]

Ron
1908 DWM, sn 4807b, unit stamped 12 J. 10. signifies: (12 Jäger-Bataillon, Command /Staff, Waffe Nr. 10) (Note: The J in your unit stamp looks unusual.)

Jager Bataillon 12 was part of the 32 Infantry Division and Jager Regiment 10 (part of the 6th Reserve Division) during World War I. These Divisions battled on both the Eastern and Western Fronts during World War I.

The Jager Bataillon’s were among Germany’s best combat units during World War I. Out of a data base of 853 unit marked Imperial lugers only 15 bear Jager Bataillon unit stamps. They are rare and sought after by collectors.

One collector who specialized in unit marked Lugers bought a frame that was Jager unit stamped. He eventually had the frame restored to a complete Luger by Gale Morgan.
Jan

 

[Ron Smith]

Jan, "(Note: The J in your unit stamp looks unusual.)" How so?
Does this piece still retain value, even in refinished condition? Due to the unit mark? I have been suffering from a bit of buyers remorse, because of the refinsh. I would appreciate any more info. that would aleave this anxiety.
Thanks very much for the unit information, Ron

 

[Edward Tinker]

I don't have time right now ron, but compare yours against others:
http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=645
1908 DWM, 9TH JAGER BATAILLON

http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=727
Reporting a 1916 DWM

http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1827
1918 DWM, RJR 212.9K.7.

http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1361
1920/1918 ERFURT, M.W./J.R.21.42.

http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=306
1911 ERFURT, DETAILS & HISTORY

 

[Jan C Still]

Ron
Recently picked up the World War I battle history of the 12 Jager Bataillon from the Kube Auction.
Jan


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[Heinrich]

Ron,
Concerning the unit stamp I have some doubts.
The 1 of the battalion's number 12 should have the shape like the 1 in this response or at the weapon no.10 (a small line under the vertical line).
Also the J is not according to the unit's script instruction.
Additional remark: The correct unit designation is Jäger- Bataillon Nr.12 (or no. 12), not 12th ...
There was a 1st and a 2nd battalion, but only the 1st had the no.12.
See the attached picture.


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This covers also all other units, except Bavarian units. They use the ...th and then the arm.

I hope I have explained it understandable. If not, don't hesitate to ask.

 

[Ron Smith]

Hello Heinrich,

I noticed the missing foot or base on the 1. However I feel that since the 10 has the correct style 1. The 1 in the 12 could be a replacement die? Or an armorers replacement, possibly homemade. As it is in the European style, with the large "hook", (for lack of the correct term).As a boat mechanic in the Navy, we often had to fabricate our own parts and tools due to loss, theft or breakage. I would think that anyone going to the trouble of faking it would want it to be as uniform and convincing as possible.


As for the "J" it is in the same style and size as on Jan's 9th Jäger Luger and Bayonet. As well as my 4th Jäger Bayonet.

I am by no means, questioning your judement of the markings. As you may well, and probably do know more about them than I.
Whether wishful thinking, just plain stubborness, or gut feeling. In my opinion the markings are authentic.
I do appreciate and respect your comments and opinion, however. Thankyou. Ron

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(9th Jäger Luger and Bayonet photos courtesy of Jan C Still)




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Jan, That is outstanding! Is it written in German? Would you take a slightly used right arm for it?
Ron

 

[Jan C Still]

Ron
If the front strap of your Luger was refinished, it is possible that the foot of your 1 was ground away. It also could have been improperly stamped on the curved surface of the front strap.

The 12 Jager WWI history is available. I bought a lot of 3 Jager Bataillon Histories (11, 12, and 13) to get the 11th. If interested please let me know. (Better keep that right arm, from what I have seen you will need it.)
Jan

 

[Heinrich]

Hello Ron,
The impression of your unit marking can really be influenced by the rework operation as also Jan mentioned.
What I don't like about it is the missing base.

 

[keoki7]

The lacking base of the numeral 1 in the number twelve could quite possibly be the result of an armorer fabricated tool. A counterfeiter would hardly make such a mistake. An armorer would likely be quite pleased with himself.

 

[Ron Smith]

I have ressurected this old post to vindicate some doubt about the authenticity of the marking on my 1908 12th Jäger unit. There was some question raised on the grounds that the 1 did not have a "foot", and therefore suspect. I had some doubts myself. However, after a recent buy of a legitimate 1934 KM unit marked Mauser. I feel that it will offer vindication and authenticate the Jäger mark.

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Below is the Ostsee Unit Mark on the 1934 KM. Note that the 1 , although different font, has no foot. I feel that this would indicate the use of both styles of stamps by armorers. Granted, the KM mark is of a later era, but is a legitimate armorer applied mark.

It is possible that the dies were procured from more than one producer. One offering one style and another offering a different style.

Just had to get this out of my system.

Thanks! Ron

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[Jan C Still]

Ron
Excellent point. The footless one is also shown in numerous photographs applied by Navy armorers to Kriegsmarine pistols on pages 155-177 of Axis Pistols. Remember, however, these markings are pantographed not stamped.

Have noticed the footless one on some Imperial unit stamps. Suspect the reason is most often because of the curved surface of the grip strap and the armorer not applying the stamp properly. Also in refinishing the foot may get ground off.
Jan

 

[Ron Smith]

Hi Jan, Well.... do I feel stupid. You are correct. Under magnification I see that they pantogrphed. I at first,thought that they were stamped and only the E/M was panographed. So much for that theory. :-(

How is the new book coming along. I am anxiously awaiting publication. I read your message about it being a year or so away, but still looking forward to it.

Thanks for the reality check, Ron

 

[Guest]

Ron,
The photo of the grip strap marking is slightly out of focus. Could you provide a closer photo of just the marking?