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1908 DWM, COMMERCIAL ARMY, SERIAL NUMBER 70149, RESERVE INFANTRY REGIMENT 72, MACHINE GUN COMPANY
During late 1913 and 1914 some 1908 and 1914 Commercial Lugers were routed to military service. These do not bear commercial proofs and instead bear the Army Test Proof (DWM) and C/X C/X C/X Army acceptance stamps on the right receiver.
These C/X C/X C/X Army acceptance stamps are found almost exclusively on the 1908 and 1914 DWM Commercial Army and a few 1914 dated DWM Army Lugers which lack a stock lug, in the 8000a-9400a serial range. However, a slightly different style of C/X stamp (single or double) is found on 1913 and 1914 dated DWM Lugers (Costanzo, page 287 and 288). ( The C/X C/X stamp is also found on at least one 1909 dated Erfurt rifle.)
A few of these Commercial Army Lugers bear a 1933 police sear safety. This has lead to the theory that these Lugers were in police service during the Imperial Era. However, a 1908 and a 1914 Commercial Army Luger bear Imperial German Army unit stamps; which, discredits this theory.
A few 1908 and 1914 DWM Commercial Army Lugers lack an Army test proof and instead bear C/N commercial proofs. As Gruber and Coe recently pointed out, these Lugers indicate that under some circumstances, the commercial C/N proof was accepted by the military in place of the Army test proof. As pointed out by Bob Weiss, this is similar to the 1940 dated P08 Banner Army’s with E/655 acceptance stamps, E/N proof, and no Army test Proof. (A real commercial 1908 C/X “Army” by jcoe and 1914 DWM - 8083a No Stock Lug by RockWR)
These 1908 and 1914 DWM Commercial Army Lugers bear a 4 inch barrel with gauge and serial number on the bottom and test proof on the upper right side; bear a hold open and commercial style serial numbers. The 1908 lacks a stock lug while the 1914 bears a stock lug. (A few deviate from the above and a lazy C/N commercial proof on the left receiver, breech block, and bottom of the barrel substitutes for the Army test Proof.)


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Figure 1. Right slant view of 1908 Commercial Army, serial number 70149. It bears C/X C/X C/X Army acceptance stamps and an Army test proof on the right receiver. This Luger was manufactured with a hold open.


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Figure 2. Top,1908 Commercial Army, serial number 70149. The serial number placement is hidden (commercial style). An Army test proof is stamped on the right side of the barrel.



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Figure 3. Left side, 1908 Commercial Army, serial number 70149. Note: the long sear bar.



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Figure 4. Right receiver and barrel of 1908 Commercial Army, serial number 70149, showing details of its C/X C/X C/X Army acceptance stamps and Army test proof.



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Figure 5. Front of frame and bottom of barrel of 1908 Commercial Army, serial number 70149. The serial number of the take down lever is in the commercial style (hidden). Note: the halo around the digits of the barrel serial number(barley visible) and lack of halo on the frame serial number. The barrel serial number is through the blue.


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Figure 6. Inside of grips, 1908 Commercial Army, serial number 70149. They are unmarked.


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Figure 7. Front view of 1908 Commercial Army, serial number 70149, showing the Reserve Infantry Regiment 72, Machine Gun Company unit stamps.
The World War I history of this Luger is covered in this same section under BATTLE HISTORY OF THE R.I.R.72.
For more photographs and information on the Reserve Infantry Regiment 72 and its Lugers see:
Under the section1900-1918: P.08-Army Lugers see: “1908 DWM, SN 6747, R.I.R.72.M.G.34.”
Under the section1900-1918: Long P.08-Artillery Lugers see: “1917 LP08 MINENWERFER”
Under the section 1900-1918: Luger Unit Markings see “FOUR R.J.R.72. LUGERS”.
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
SERIAL NUMBERS DESCRIPTIONS OF 1908 AND 1914 COMMERCIAL ARMY OR NAVY LUGERS
The 1908 Commercial Navy bears C/N commercial proofs and a Navy C/M stamp on the left receiver.(Imperial Lugers page 181)
(Data from Imperial Lugers page 25, 26, 53-55, 181; and A real commercial 1908 C/X “Army” by jcoe and 1914 DWM - 8083a No Stock Lug by RockWR) (Data base lost, additional serial numbers and descriptions would be most helpful. Serial numbers of commercial Lugers in this range would also be most helpful. )
1908 DWM, COMMERCIAL ARMY OR NAVY
59953 1908 Commercial Navy
69158 1908 Commercial Navy
69163 1908 Commercial Army
69182 1908 Commercial Navy
69346 1908 Commercial Army (also listed as a Commercial Navy, correction?)
69457: 1908 "Army Commercial", C/X C/X C/X on right receiver; lazy C/N on left receiver, breech block, and middle toggle link; commercial style sn placement, long sear bar, barrel with 8.83 gauge, and C/N proof (No Army test proof)
69548 1908 Commercial Navy
69576 1908 Commercial Navy
69624 1908 Commercial Army
69648 1908 Commercial Army
69718 1908 Commercial Army
69812 1908 Commercial Army
69859 1908 Commercial Army
69879 1908 Commercial Army
69911 1908 Commercial Army
69973 1908 Commercial Army
70033 1908 Commercial Army(7.65 cal)
70093 1908 Commercial Army
70119 1908 Commercial Army
70149 1908 Commercial Army: R.I.R.72.M.G.11. - (Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment 72, Maschinengewehr-Kompagnie, Waffe Nr. 11)
70598 1908 Commercial Army (added 01-31-05)
70756 1908 Commercial Army (sear safety)
70840 1908 Commercial Army
71406 1908 Commercial Navy
71420 1908 Commercial Navy

1914 DWM, COMMERCIAL ARMY OR NAVY
70319 1914 Commercial Army
70415 1914 Commercial Army
70456 1914 Commercial Army
71182 1914 Commercial Army
71812 1914 Commercial Army : C/gothic letter C/gothic letter C/gothic letter on right receiver; lazy C/N on left receiver, breech block, and middle toggle link; commercial style sn placement, barrel with 8.83 gauge, and C/N proof (No test proof). 1933 sear safety
71822 1914 Commercial Army : J.R.190 7.K.3 - (Infanterie-Regiment 190, 7 Kompagnie, Waffe Nr. 3)
72050 1914 Commercial Army : C/gothic letter C/gothic letter C/gothic letter on right receiver; lazy C/N on left receiver, breech block, and middle toggle link; commercial style sn placement, barrel with 8.84 gauge, and C/N proof (No test proof).
72059 1914 Commercial Army?
72215 1914 Commercial Navy

SERIAL NUMBERS AND DESCRIPTION OF 1908 AND 1914 DWM COMMERCIAL
REICHS GENDARMERIE (Unit marking data base; Imperial Lugers page 26, 57-58)
1908 DWM Comm., 60530: R.G.14b-(Reichs Gendarmerie Elass-Lorthingen, Mounted, Waffe 14)(C/B C/B rt. Rec.)
1908 DWM Comm., 61305: R.G.27-(Reichs Gendarmerie Elass-Lorthingen, Waffe 27)
1908 DWM Comm.,: R.G.41-(Reichs Gendarmerie Elass-Lorthingen, Waffe 41)
1908 DWM Comm., 60385 : R.G.51-(Reichs Gendarmerie Elass-Lorthingen, Waffe 51)
1908 DWM Comm.,: 61649: R.G.109-(Reichs Gendarmerie Elass-Lorthingen, Waffe 109)
1908 DWM Comm.,: 61755: R.G.106-(Reichs Gendarmerie Elass-Lorthingen, Waffe 109)(C/X C/X rt. rec.)
1914 DWM Comm.,: 74596: R.G.136b-(Reichs Gendarmerie Elass-Lorthingen, Mounted, Waffe 136)
1914 DWM Comm.,: 74186: R.G.160-(Reichs Gendarmerie Elass-Lorthingen, Waffe 160)
1914 DWM Comm.,: 74208: R.G.206-(Reichs Gendarmerie Elass-Lorthingen, Waffe 206)
1914 DWM Comm.,: 74200: R.G.214-(Reichs Gendarmerie Elass-Lorthingen, Waffe 214)
1914 DWM Comm.,: 74213: R.G.220-(Reichs Gendarmerie Elass-Lorthingen, Waffe 220)
1914 DWM Comm.,: 74012: R.G.238-(Reichs Gendarmerie Elass-Lorthingen, Waffe 238)
1914 DWM Comm.,: 74036: R.G.252-(Reichs Gendarmerie Elass-Lorthingen, Waffe 252)
1914 DWM Comm.,: 74707: R.G.272-(Reichs Gendarmerie Elass-Lorthingen, Waffe 272)

1914 DWM, NO LUG. Some 1914 DWM Lugers in the 8000a-9400a serial range bear the C/X C/X C/X and lack a stock lug. (Data base lost, additional serial numbers and descriptions would be most helpful.) Serial numbers reported:
8083a,
8084a
8239a
8257a
8310a,
8368a
8525a
8754a,
8837a
8856a
9351a
Above sn's corrected according to Bob's observations below.

SUMMARY 1908 & 1914 DWM COMMERCIAL, ARMY & NAVY & REICHS GENDARMERIE; AND 1914 DWM, NO LUG
1908 DWM, REICHS GENDARMERIE: 6 reported in the 60385 to 61755 serial range
1908 DWM, COMMERCIAL NAVY : 8 reported in the 59953, 69158-71420 serial range
1908 DWM, COMMERCIAL ARMY :17 reported in the 69163-70840 serial range. (updated 01-31-05)
1914 DWM, COMMERCIAL ARMY : 8 reported in the 70319-72059 serial range.
1914 DWM, COMMERCIAL NAVY : 72215
1914 DWM, REICHS GENDARMERIE: 8 reported in the 74012 to 74707 serial range.
1914 DWM, ARMY, NO LUG. : 11 reported in the 8083a to 9351a serial range.

For photographs and information covering 1914 DWM Commercial R.G. Lugers, see in this section: * TWO 1914 DWM COMMERCIAL, R.G. LUGERS, SN 74200 AND Jan C Still (1914 DWM Comm. sn74200, R.G.214, mm; 1914 DWM Comm., sn74596, R.G.136b)
------------- http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=80
 

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Jan,
* What a marvelous and hopefully, synergistic combination of known examples among these major sub-variations.
* Relative to the 1914 DWM, ARMY, NO LUG:
- Fig 13a, Pg.42 of Imperial Lugers lists the following additional S/N's.
8084a
8239a
8257a
8525a
8856a
9351a
* I trust you know the Author, may recall the data sources and, thus, can reconstruct the lost data from this picture's caption.
* Combined with the S/N's above, it looks like 11 examples are reported for this sub-variation.
* And, yes, I've noticed 8084a is a consecutive number to my 8083a. Very interesting to say the least. May have to burn up the E-Mail wires on this one!
* On the offhand chance any of these 1914 DWM, ARMY, No Stock Lug examples bear a grip strap or other markings, please post as the information may lead to a further understanding of the provinance of this interesting variation.
Thanks,
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Bob
Some authors have a bad habit of putting sn data in captions instead of in the main book sections where it belongs. Thanks for the help. It has been corrected above.
Jan
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
John
Thanks for the correction. I have corrected 72050 and 72059 above. Please check your post of 12/14/2003 11:19:38 where you list 72050 and 72059.
Thanks
Jan
 

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This is for Jan Still, Jan, I have just read this thread and have another serial number of a DWM P08 Commercial Army pistol for you: 69727
The pistol is in excellent condition with all matching numbers except a correct period non-matching magazine. Is there collector demand for such an item?

Thanks again,

Jeff Simmons
 
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