[r_t_darc]

In honor of this gun's 95th birthday, I decided to finally share it with the rest of the forum. This is a 1909 First Issue P08, serial number 2293b, placing it among the last couple weeks of production. Almost all numbers are matching, the exception being one replaced grip panel. Some of the numbers were restamped or newly added during the rebuild process. The serial # on the left beside the chamber was stamped right over the original acceptance markings of an Imp Eagle, Crown/T, and Crown/Z. The sideplate was replaced and renumbered at that time, also. The magazine is a wooden bottom probably numbered to the gun at the time of refurbishment. The toggle parts have also been numbered, and a hold open device retro-fitted. No magazine or sear safety have been added, however.

Download Attachment: 1909-1920LugerL.JPG
160.38 KB

Download Attachment: 1909-1920LugerR.JPG
186.39 KB

Download Attachment: 1909-1920LugerT.JPG
147.18 KB

Download Attachment: 1909-1920LugerG.JPG
107.8 KB

The front gripstrap area contains both provisional and permanent Weimar Army unit property markings. Interestingly, the 1921 marking regulation is violated, in that the temporary and final weapon #'s do not match one another. The former is found on the toe of the grip in the form of a small "1.57" stamp. On the frontstrap is the later mark of " I. / J.R.15.10. " indicating the First Batallion of the Fifteenth Infantry Regiment, weapon number 10. This unit (also known as the 2nd Westfalisches?) was originally formed July 1st, 1813. It was stationed in Minden and attached to the VII Army Korps at the outbreak of WW1.

I think this veteran of two world wars is an interesting piece of history, but then I suppose that I as its owner am a bit biased

Thanks for sharing it with me!

Rich M

 

[Jan C Still]

Rich M
Thanks for the interesting history and presentation of your 1908 DWM with 1920 Reichswehr property stamp and 15 Infanterie Regiment (I./J.R.15.10.) Reichwehr unit stamp.
Jan

 

[donmaus]

Rich M
I find your discussion of the provisional and permanent markings very interesting. Is there any documentary basis for the placement of the provisional mark on the toe of the grip strap and the permanent one on the front? The reason I'm asking is I have assembled a database of 500 Weimar police unit marks and many of the guns have two marks, one on the toe and one on the front of the grip strap. In some of these cases, the mark on the front has been cancelled but the mark on the toe has survived. A logical assumption is that the mark on the toe replaced the one on the front; however, I am not so sure of this in several cases and your explanation may support the reverse interpretation. I realize that yours are military marks and I'm talking about police marks but the two organizations may have employed some of the same practices.

 

[r_t_darc]

Don-
Quoting from Gortz's "German Small Arms Markings" page 63:

'Berlin, 9th April 1921-

To ensure more efficient record-keeping until (new marking instructions are published), a provisional marking is to ba applied to small arms and related equipment. The provisional unit marking is to include the number of the Kompagnie only, plus a consecutive individual weapon number.
The location originally reserved for the application of unit markings (usually the frontstrap on a P08) must be left vacant for the final markings.
Units have to select a suitable position for the provisional markings on their own initiative.
When applying the final marking, weapons have to be stamped with the same consecutive numbers that have been applied in the provisional marking.'

(This regulation applied only to Heer {Army) weapons, though police policies were probably similar.)

The markings on the toe of Lugers were probably not deemed important enough to take the trouble to cancel. They were only meant to be temporary, after all. I do wonder, though, if it was common to disregard the last sentence of the regulation? Do the provisional and permanent weapon numbers often disagree, or is mine unusual in that respect?

Thank You for your interest!
Rich

 

[donmaus]

Rich,

In my database of 500 Weimar police unit marks, I can find only three cases of a mark on the toe having the same weapon number as on the grip strap and two of these are on Lugers that were not manufactured until the mid-20s or later. I don't think this says any thing one way or the other.

I've been tempted to assume that the provisional marking by the Army was also practiced by the police but don't really have much evidence yet to support this.

 

[r_t_darc]

The instructions for permanent unit marking of Army weapons and equipment were issued on November 1st, 1922. If your Lugers' toe markings weren't applied until the mid to late 20's, it would seem that these served a bit different purpose in Police agency use. It does sound like a good topic for further research, though. (I didn't find any reference to provisional stamps in the Police section of Gortz's book. I believe that the Police marking regulations had also been finalized by late 1922, however. [Bavaria & Prussia, at least.])