[Guest]

Hello All,

I am new to this forum, and new to Luger collecting. About two weeks ago, I bought a DWM P08 dated 1910 over the chamber, with the what I presume are unit markings on the front strap. They read as follows:

1.G.D.2.15.

The last . in the above number is not a period, but is actually part of the markings on the front strap of the piece. Can anyone enlighten me as to whether this is a military or police unit marking, and which unit it would denote?

I would also be interested in hearing opinions on the worth of my pistol from some folks knowledgeable on the subject. All the serial numbers except the magazine match, including the grips. The bore is in decent shape, and I would say it's bluing (original)is in the 90% to 95% range. One other notable detail, there is a thin steel bar over the top of the trigger plate. Is this some sort of safety device added after the war? Pardon my igorance of the subject, but I've heard that some Imperial Lugers were modified in the Weimar era in some way like this. Would this modification adversely affect the value or collectability of this piece? A holster came with the gun, and is in good shape, but it is dated 1939.

Thanks in advance for any light anyone can shine on this newest addition to my collection. It's my second Luger, and I find the two to be among the most interesting pieces in my safe.

 

[Jan C Still]

Danny
1910 DWM, s/n ?? : 1.G.D.2.15. this unit marking is imperial German and signifies- 1 Garde-Dragon-Regiment , Eskadron 2, Waffe Nr. 15. This was an elite cavalary regiment that battled on both the Eastern and Western Fronts during World War I.

"there is a thin steel bar over the top of the trigger plate." this is a sear safety installed according to Prussian Police orders dated August 1933 and indicates use by the Prussian State Police during the Nazi Era.

You have a very interesting find. What is the serial number of your Luger? Photographs of your Luger including a close up of the front strap unit marking would be greatly appreciated and helpful in evaluating your Luger. What are the markings on your 1939 dated holster?
Thanks
Jan

 

[Guest]

Jan,

Thanks for your input. The serial number is 5790c. I shall make all efforts to take some digital photos and post them this evening. I believe the father in law of the gentleman from whom I bought it brought this pistol back from Germany at the end of the war. He's not a gun enthusiast, so it's just sat for all these years.

Regarding the holster, the only markings are between the upper parts of the belt loops on the back, where it is marked "Schambach80o", but the last digit is actually underlined. This writing is curved up somewhat in the middle, and directly beneath this is written "BERLIN", which in turn has "1939" written below it. Finally, under the date there is a mark that looks almost like a three leafed clover. The holster is in pretty good shape for it's age; all the stitching is tight and strong, it's a little bit scuffed up but retains very much of it's black color.

Thanks again for providing such fascinating information. Do you have any suggestions as to where I may be able to find a history of that unit?

Danny

 

[Edward Tinker]

Danny, I am interested in Weimar Police and as Jan said, yours sounds like an Imperial that was police modified during / through the Weimar era.

Any other markings, proofs, etc., would be interesting to observe. Can you provide pictures or scans of the luger?

Ed

 

[Guest]

Ed,
I'll go over the piece more thoroughly to look for markings, but the only ones I've noticed are the Imperial marks noted. It's definitely not a double date. Do you have any suggestions on how to highlight the markings in white, as I've seen in many Luger photos? All of the markings are clear and strong, but since they don't have the white I'm afraid they won't show up as well in the photos. I hope to have these photos posted tonight, with the technical help of my wife.

 

[Jan C Still]

Danny
Below are the five Garde Dragoon Lugers (now including yours) that I have in my data base. Three of these bear the 1933 sear safety, which suggests that a group of these Garde Dragoon Lugers were acquired by the police sometime after World War I.

Does your holster close with a buckle (army)or a post (police). If it is a police holster it is proper for your Luger.
Jan

* 1910 DWM, s/n 7455c : 1.G.D.1.2. - (1 Garde-Dragoner-Regiment , Eskadron 1, Waffe Nr. 2)
* 1910 DWM, s/n 5790c : 1.G.D.2.15. - (1 Garde-Dragoner-Regiment , Eskadron 2, Waffe Nr. 15)(With sear safety)
* 1910 DWM, s/n 8474c : 1.G.D.3.1. - (1 Garde-Dragoner-Regiment , Eskadron 3, Waffe Nr. 1)
* 1910 DWM, s/n 8494c : 1.G.D.4.1. - (1 Garde-Dragoner-Regiment , Eskadron 4, Waffe Nr. 1) (With sear safety and two matching Weimar marked police magazines)
* 1910 DWM, s/n 9125b : 2.G.D.10. , O.N.2. (2 Garde-Dragoner-Regiment ,Stab, Waffe Nr. 10, xed out, O.N.2.unknown) (With sear safety)

 

[Guest]

Jan,
Thanks for the post. This is all extremely intriguing. The magazine with my pistol has an aluminum base, and it does not match the pistol. Are the Weimar marked police magazines noted for serial #8494c aluminum or wood based? I will make sure to get a photo of the magazine markings this evening.

Danny

 

[Heinz]

Danny, now that you have exposed yourself to the dreaded luger bug you will need some books to better understand what you have and to make sure future purchases are as successful as this one. Check out the book review section. I would highly recommend Jan's Stills Weimar Lugers to help with your present piece. Also check out the Weimar police reissue section on this forum.

Weimar police magazines followed a pattern of modifications. Replacements were always restricted by budgetary concerns. Initial 1919 through about 1935 used "seamed" two piece magazines where the ridge running down the side of the magazine is actually a seam. After 1935 extruded seamless magazines, generally ( maybe always) produced by Hanel Schmeisser were used as replacements (Third Reich Lugers p 172). To make things interesting magazines were not replaced unless they really needed it so aluminum bottoms were used to refurbish seamed magazines, and rarely extruded magazines show up with original wooden bottoms. The police numbered their magazines slightly differently than the army. The army used a + on the extra magazine, the police numbered them 1, 2 and ocassionally 3. The use of aluminum bottoms began as early as 1925 although the wood bottoms continued in use until 1929 (Weimar Lugers p 184). Police weapons seem to be more likely to have matched magazines probably relating to police practice and non-combat conditions. Those pressed into service as army weapons in WWII can be expected to have the usual mismatched magazine. This is just an overview of the magazines, you need to buy some books, and then more lugers, and a digital camera so you can share with us

 

[Edward Tinker]

Danny, you can use a white grease pencil, chalk (possibly abrasive, I wouldn't use), or they make special markers, DON'T use anything that is permanant! ;>)

Police magazines were both wood and aluminum, after a certain date (I am out of town, so no books), they went from wood to metal. Police magazines are usually marked with a 1, 2 or 3, sometimes with a II or a I.

Ed

 

[Guest]

Thanks to all for all the good input. I have taken some digital photos, but they aren't very good, and I'm having trouble uploading them because they're over 300k. I will try taking some photos in daylight tomorrow, and will get a white grease pencil (thanks Ed) and a quick tech lesson from my wife about compressing jpeg files. Might I send the files as is to your various email address's in the meantime? My apologies for the wait; I'm very curious for everyone's thoughts from the photos.

From what I read here, it looks like the magazine is a military spare, as it has no number, but does have the +. It's definitely a two piece seamed type.

 

[Jan C Still]

Photographs from Danny(Dwhit)NOTE: THESE ARE POP UPS. CLICK ON THE PHOTOGRAPH ONCE FOR 1/2 SIZE AND WAIT AND CLICK ON THE ORANGE TURTLE FOR FULL SIZE.

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[Jan C Still]

Dan
The sear safety (1933) indicates that your Luger ended World War II as a police Luger. The holster that the Luger came in (1939 police)is probably the same holster that it ended World War II in.

Magazines became mixed up during the war and after. Very few Lugers ended World War II with a matching magazine. A more proper magazine would be an aluminum bottom mag numbered 1 or 2.

I would recommend Tom Heller at 636-447-3006 ([email protected]) as a good place to purchase the correct magazine.
Jan

 

[RockinWR]

Danny,
* Welcome to the Forum !!
* "Schambach80o" is actually "Schambach&Co".
* "mark that looks almost like a three leafed clover" is the Police Eagle Acceptance mark composed of a body & 2 uplifted wings. A Capital letter "B" can appear on the breast of the eagle's body.
* See Huggiebear's PP thread currently running today. His PP holster was made by Schambach&Co in 1941. The stamped impression marks are very clear on his mint holster example.
* Schaumbach, being in Berlin near the Police Central Offices, was a major supplier of leather holster to the German Police.

 

[Guest]

Many thanks to you all. My first visit to this forum has made an interesting acquisition fascinating. I just checked out Huggiebear's PP thread, Bob, and it's exactly the same mark (just wish mine were in half as good a shape!). My biggest remaining questions are a)what are some of your opinions regarding the condition of my Luger, judging from the photos, and b)does anyone have any basic rundown on the combat history of the Dragoon unit to which my Luger was issued in the Great War? Also, should I call this an Imperial, Weimar, or Third Reich Luger?

Jan, I will definitely contact Tom Heller about a correct magazine. Thanks again for your assistance in posting the photos.

Danny