[maddog350gt]

Hi all,

As requested by Jan here are pictures of 1911 DWM 5701e B.2.T.S.1.177. Condition is very good with a couple of small frosted areas on the barrel. All numbers match with the exception of the Magazine. Straw is good but fading. 5701e has serial number placement in the commercial style, an unrelieved sear bar, no hold open latch, and no stock lug. All of these features are consistent with known specifications and build conventions in place in 1911. I am curious about the hart stamps on the inside of the grip panels. Does anyone know what these mean? are they common? Does it indicate a replacement set of grips? If anyone wants additional pictures of some feature of marking let me know and I will try to add it.

Bob M.


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[Edward Tinker]

Outstanding Bob, thanks for sharing!

Ed

 

[Jan C Still]

Bob
Thanks for the excellent photographs of your Bavarian issued 1911 DWM.
Jan

 

[Shelly]

I own a 1911 DWM unit marked B.2.T.S.1.9. The s/n is 5938e. There is no hold open and the sear is unrelieved.

 

[keoki7]

Maddog, I have a 1911 DWM marked to the Second Bavarian Train Battalion, second Sanitats Company, weapon number 102, "B.2.T.S.2.102.". The serial number is 4089e. Like yours, mine has a "heart" on each of the numbered grips. Actually I think I have noted these marks on a number of my P08s.

 

[maddog350gt]

keoki7 and Shelly,

Thanks for the info on your 1911 DWM's. Given the span between serial numbers I wonder how many guns were issued to a T.S. Regiment? Anyone have an Idea of how large these unit were and how many of the company would have had weapons issued?

keoki7, your comment on the harts on the grips makes me wonder what they are for. They were put on for a reason by some one, maybe identifying a specific supplier to DWM, but that's just speculation. I don't know if any of my other guns have the hart on the grip or not. To be truthful I don't think I have taken the grips off of all of my guns to check them. I guess I am spending too much time and money buying Lugers and not enough characterizing the ones I have. I do plan to get them all out for photographs in the near future. I want to be able to access the important information on each gun quickly so I want photos and a data sheet on all of them. When I do I'll look to see if any of the others have the hart on the grips. I can't say that I have seen it before, but I can't say I looked for it either.

Does anyone know what the significance is?

Bob M.

 

[keoki7]

Bob, as to the question of Train Battalion Lugers dated 1911, this issue was batted around some time ago and, as I recall, concensus was that Trains are mostly found in 1911. There seems to be a pattern that indicates a priority system followed by the Germans as cavalry units seem to appear mostly with the date 1910.

 

[Ron Smith]

My 1911 Erfurt was originaly issued to 12th.Train.Sanitats.3rd Co.weapon #223. So it seems prevelant that a number of all 1911 production Lugers were issued to Train units.

Ron

 

[Dwight Gruber]

Bob et al,

Here's the list of Bavarian Train Battalion Sanitats Company guns I posted last December with my own B.1.T.S. Luger:

B.1.T.S.1.133 DWM 1911 521e DG

B.1.T.S.2.9 DWM 1911 689e Luke
B.1.T.S.2.210 DWM 1911 930e Noll (Imperian German Regimental Markings)
B.1.T.S.2.230 DWM 1911 Still (Imperial Lugers)

B.1.T.S.3.68 DWM 1911 1046e Noll, Still (Imperial Lugers)
B.1.T.S.3.73 DWM 1911 1051e Noll (Imperian German Regimental Markings)
B.1.T.S.3.171 DWM 1911 1166e Still (Imperial Lugers)

B.2.T.S.1.9 DWM 1911 5938e Shelley
B.2.T.S.1.177 DWM 1911 5701e Still (Imperial Lugers), BobM

B.2.T.S.2.102 DWM 1911 4089e Keoki7
B.2.T.S.2.76 DWM 1911 Still (Imperial Lugers)

B.2T.S.3.201 DWM 1911 39xx Noll, Still (Imperial Lugers)

Your gun is actually listed in Imperial Lugers, but without serial#. I've added George's and Shelley's guns to the list.

Ron, do I understand that your Luger is not a Bavarian gun?

--Dwight

 

[keoki7]

Regarding my statement above on the heart shaped stamp in the grip panels, amongst my 08s, 10s, 11s, and 12s, the one I posted is the only one with the heart shaped stamp.

 

[Ron Smith]

Dwight,
That's correct. As far as I know it is'nt a Bavarian. There is'nt a "B" prefix. Marked 12.T.S.3.223.(X'd out) It also has been retro-fitted with a hold open. It is the one with three unit marks. Also 108th Shutzen/Fusillier Reg.(X'd out). Last issued to 98th Inf. Reg.

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Ron

 

[Dwight Gruber]

update 6/21/07 a new one just posted on the Luger Forum http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=127161#post127161 added to list --Dwight
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update 7/29/06 ran into another example on Guns America today, added it to the list. --Dwight
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Y'all made me go back to the books. Here is the listing of T.S. unit marks I have been able to dredge up from Still, Noll, and the posts here. For the record I've included the Reichsrevolvers M1883 marked to these units, as well. One of them is C.T.S., identified as Corps-Train-Batailon Sanitäts-Kompanie.

Noll also records two guns marked to a T.L. unit. He identifies this as Feldlazarette der Train-Abteilung, Field Hospital of a service corps detachment. This as compared to T.S. Sanitäts-Kompagnie der Train-Battailon, Medical Company of a service-corps batallion. This adds credence to Jan Still's definition of Sanitäts-Kompanie as Ambulancers.

--Dwight

B.1.T.S.1.133. DWM 1911 521e; DG

B.1.T.S.2.9. DWM 1911 689e; Luke
<s>B.1.T.S.2.210.</s> B.15.J.R.2.K. DWM 1911 930e; Noll
B.1.T.S.2.230. DWM 1911 nsn; Still

B.1.T.S.3.68. DWM 1911 1046e; Noll, Still
B.1.T.S.3.73. DWM 1911 1051e; Noll
B.1.T.S.3.171. DWM 1911 1166e; Still

B.2.T.S.1.9. DWM 1911 5938e; Shelley
B.2.T.S.1.177. DWM 1911 5701e; Still, BobM

B.2.T.S.2.102. DWM 1911 4089e; Keoki7
B.2.T.S.2.76. DWM 1911 nsn; Still
<s>B.2.T.S.2.96</s> B.1.M.1.11 M1882 revolver V.C.S. 1578; Noll

B.2.T.S.3.69. DWM 1911 3209e Brian {Luger Forum)
B.2.T.S.3.201. DWM 1911 39xx; Noll, Still
B.2.T.S.3.202. DWM 1911 3519n; Guns America 976719033

<s>2.T.S.3.67.</s> B.3.T.S.3.29. M1883 revolver V.C.S. 1220; Noll

9.T.S.3.163 M1882 revolver F.Dreyse 8127; Noll

<s>12.T.S.1.169.</s> 177.R. Erfurt 1911 29xx; Noll
<s>12.T.S.1.205.</s> 102.R.6.1. Erfurt 1911 2607; Noll

13.T.S.3.93. DWM 1910 4523c; Noll
<s>12.T.S.3.223.</s> <s>108.S.2.19.</s> 98.R.S.11. Erfurt 1911 nsn; Ron S.

19.T.S.3.163. M1883 revolver F.Dreyse 8127; Noll
19.T.S.1.144. DWM 1911 7008e; Noll

<s>C.T.S.1.48.</s> L.G. M1883 revolver F.Dreyse 4521; Noll

13.T.L.4.2. DWM 1910 1456c; Noll
13.T.L.9.11. DWM 1910 2786c; Noll

Noll = Imperian German Regimental Markings
Still = Imperial Lugers