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A friend of mine is offering a Luger for sale (1911 DWM) with two magazines and a holster. All part numbers are matched except magazines. Please help to ID this pistol (the question I could not find the answer is marking on the rear grip frame).


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I have all other parts photos and can upload them as well.
Regards Nic
 

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Nicvol,

For the Luger collecting world outside SA, that is one rare pistol. I have LP 370 and count myself very lucky to have gotten it.
 

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Ron, all the DSWA P08s I have read or heard of are dated 1911, either DWM or Erfurt.
 

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Nick
* 1911 DWM, s/n 274e : L.P.253 - (Landespolizei Deutsch-Südwest Afrika, Waffe Nr. 253)
I have only 16 of these recorded in my data base 8 are 1911 Erfurts 7 are 1911 DWMs and one is a Roth Sauer.

This is a highly desirable unit marking!
Jan
 

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Nic,
An outstanding gun, and very rare. From what I can see in the pictures it is in excellent shape as well. It is well worth buying and I recommend that you do. If for some reason you don't buy it let the forum know. I am sure that someone here would love to have (read me included) and would even go through the effort of getting the import paperwork, it's difficult but can be done.

I am envious,
Bob M.
 

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* Okay gents, now I'm completely bumfuzzled. Maybe someone could help me understand what I'm missing here. Let me describe my dilemma by the following observations:
(1) I believe Nic's serial number is an "f" block; not an "e" block S/N. Am I seeing this correctly?
(2) Jan Still, Imperial Luger, Pg. 22 indicates the Army 1911 DWM S/N range to be 1524c to 4825e, overlaps the 1910 S/N range, and totals about 13,000 pistols. Further, yearly production estimates for 1910 Army DWM's is about 17k pistols, 1912 DWM's about 10k pistols, 1913 about 35k, & 1914 about 35k pistols. All based on S/N examples reported.
(3) Jan reports six (6), now seven (7), L.P. unit marked DWM's S/N'd 677e and 9656e to 166f. If Nic's example is indeed an "f" block, then the range is extended to 274f. Although my WAG now, one of Nic's DWM style mag may suggest this range could be extended to 401f. The L.P unit gun numbers range from 95 to 370, so far, on reported P.08 examples. Lower numbers are reported on Roth examples.
(4) Both Nic's (274f) & George's(9772e) posts show 1911 DWM examples which are Imperial Army Inspector accepted/proofed. They both appear outside numbered in the military style.
(5) Gortz/Bryans, German Small Arms Markings, devotes a major portion of pgs. 55-58 to "L.P." & "Sch.D.O.A" marked Lugers. GSWA Erfurts are reported in the 884ns to 1303ns S/N range.
(6) G/B, ibid, reports the L.P.=LandesPolizei was a State Police force totaling 566 officers, constables & admin personnel in 1913. Also, the Sch.D.A.O=Schutztruppe was a Protective force with both units reporting to the Imperial Colonial Office as of 1906. Jan Still's posted draft historical write up states the GSWA Schutztruppe consisted of 140 officers and 3000 of other ranks.
(7) G/B lists 2 other German Pre WWI Colonies in Africa organized similar to the GSWA occupying force.
(8) A 1912-1915 precidence for a "Special State Police force" with military overtones and possible close ties to the Imperial Military is documented under the "R.G. (Reich Gendarmerie) Unit Marked" Lugers in Jan's IL on pages 125-126. While some R.G's are military style marked, they were taken from DWM's commercial S/N range.

SO: My questions are:
(A) What are 1911 Military marked DWM's doing in the late "e" and early "f" block while not being accounted for in the Army S/N range and 1911 yearly total? Too few documented GSWA P.08 examples to include?
(B) Was L.P. marked S/N 677e misreported/misrecorded and is actually another "f" block gun? Intuition begs for a tighter range; but, documented history usually beats intuition everytime.
(C) What was the compliment of Lugers allocated to the other 2 African colonies? Would their S/N range & quantity, coupled with the above units, explain the approx. 4800 pistol gap from the high 1911 Imperial Army(4825e) and the low GSWA(9656e)?
(D) Any info from Mr. Kornmeyer/Mr. H. Schweingruber/Joe Wotka about these police unit marked pistols?
(E) How do the 11 Roth-Steyr's play into the mix?
(F) Did the WWI period internal German police start receiving Lugers to replace their old revolvers? Any insight on when/how many?

* As an aside, if Nic has an opportunity to query the owner of 274f, I'd suggest a capture of whatever historical provenance on this pistol be accomplished. A tape recorded conversation or signed documented account may be privotable in unlocking the mystery surrounding these interesting Colonial marked Lugers.

* Shame I have to work for a living and can't devote time to pure research. Few more years and then.....well, maybe!! Any help/thoughts would be appreciated.
 

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Bob,
An excellent series of questions! I have answered and commented where I can.
Thanks
Jan (JCS)

* Okay gents, now I'm completely bumfuzzled. Maybe someone could help me understand what I'm missing here. Let me describe my dilemma by the following observations:
(1) I believe Nic's serial number is an "f" block; not an "e" block S/N. Am I seeing this correctly?

JCS. I was mistaken in the above post, the suffix is as Bob stated an ‘f” suffix.

(2) Jan Still, Imperial Luger, Pg. 22 indicates the Army 1911 DWM S/N range to be 1524c to 4825e, overlaps the 1910 S/N range, and totals about 13,000 pistols. Further, yearly production estimates for 1910 Army DWM's is about 17k pistols, 1912 DWM's about 10k pistols, 1913 about 35k, & 1914 about 35k pistols. All based on S/N examples reported.

JCS. Imperial Lugers was printed in 1991. Serial number data concerning the LP Lugers was obtained after this 1991 publishing from James Hellyer (RSA), and European sources.

(5) Gortz/Bryans, German Small Arms Markings, devotes a major portion of pgs. 55-58 to "L.P." & "Sch.D.O.A" marked Lugers. GSWA Erfurts are reported in the 884ns to 1303ns S/N range.

JCS. This was simply a mistake on Gortz’s part. He had both LP DWM and LP Erfurt data and mistakenly left out the all the DWM data.

(6) G/B, ibid, reports the L.P.=LandesPolizei was a State Police force totaling 566 officers, constables & admin personnel in 1913. Also, the Sch.D.A.O=Schutztruppe was a Protective force with both units reporting to the Imperial Colonial Office as of 1906. Jan Still's posted draft historical write up states the GSWA Schutztruppe consisted of 140 officers and 3000 of other ranks.

JCS. The Still post is from “The Great War In Africa”, Byron Farwell, page 75, and concerns the Schutztruppe in German SW Africa. Gortz/Bryans are discussing the LandesPolizei in German SW Africa. The LandesPolizei is not the same force as the Schutztruppe.

JCS. The Sch.D.O.A.101. (Schutztruppe Deutsch Ost-Afrika Waffe 101.) marked Luger is from German East Africa. Gortz/Bryans page 37, indicate the serial number as 139h. This is very likely a typo/mistake in “German Small Arms Markings”as the data I obtained came directly from James Hellyer correspondence. He indicated the serial number as 139f. Note: the Schutztruppe Deutsch Ost-Afrika is different from the Schutztruppe Deutsch West-Afrika.


SO: My questions are:

(A) What are 1911 Military marked DWM's doing in the late "e" and early "f" block while not being accounted for in the Army S/N range and 1911 yearly total? Too few documented GSWA P.08 examples to include?

JCS. When I published Imperial Lugers in 1991 the data indicated the serial range as being from 1524 c to 4825e. I have updated this information in my posts on this Forum:
LUGERS OF THE DGN. REGTS. PART 3/5 Jan C Still (1911 DWM, Serial Number 8194d, Details, Accessories, and History; 5.D.1.12.)
------------------------- http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1048
“1911 DWM Lugers are reported in the 4089b to 166f serial range and were manufactured without hold open and stock lug. All those manufactured up to serial number 88xxe had hidden style serial number placement. Between serial number 88xxe and 93xxe the style of serial number placement changed to military (exposed) (Luke).”

JCS I will update the yearly production totals when I complete an update to “Imperial Lugers” in the near future. See listing below for the distribution of unit marked 1911 DWMs, that includes all the reported German Southwest (and SE) Africa marked DWM Lugers:

# 1911 DWM, s/n 260e : B.5.A.r.3.89. - (Bayerisches, 5 Feld-Artillerie-Regiment, reitende Batterie 3, Waffe Nr. 89)
1911 DWM, 521e, B.1.T.S.1.133 - (Bayerisches, 1 Train-Bataillon, Sanitäts-Kompagnie 1, Waffe Nr. 133)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 677e : L.P.95 - (Landespolizei Deutsch-Südwest Afrika, Waffe Nr. 95)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 689e : B.1.T.S.2.9. - (Bayerisches, 1 Train-Bataillon, Sanitäts-Kompagnie 2, Waffe Nr. 9)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 930e : B.1.T.S.2.210. <lined out> - (Bayerisches, 1 Train-Bataillon, Sanitäts-Kompagnie 2, Waffe Nr. 210) & B.15.J.R.2.K. - Bayerisches, 15 Infanterie-Regiment , 2 Kompagnie)
*1911 DWM, s/n 1046e : B.1.T.S.3.68. - (Bayerisches, 1 Train-Bataillon, Sanitäts-Kompagnie 3, Waffe Nr. 68)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 1051e : B.1.T.S.3.73. - (Bayerisches, 1 Train-Bataillon, Sanitäts-Kompagnie 3, Waffe Nr. 73)
*1911 DWM, s/n 1085e : B.3..R.M.G.23. - (Bayerisches, 3 Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment, Maschinengewehr- Kompagnie, Waffe Nr. 23)
*1911 DWM, s/n 1166e : B.1.T.S.3.171. - (Bayerisches, 1 Train-Bataillon, Sanitäts-Kompagnie 3, Waffe Nr. 171)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 1233e : 12.A.F.5.1. - (12 Fuss-Artillerie-Regiment, Batterie 5, Waffe Nr. 1)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 1623e : B.3.A.F.4.5. - (Bayerisches, 3 Fuss-Artillerie-Regiment, Batterie 4, Waffe Nr. 5)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 22xxe : Bay .21.J.R..M.G. - (Bayerisches, 21 Infanterie-Regiment, Maschinengewehr-Kompagnie)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 2395e : B.R.I.2. - (Bayerisches Reserve-Armeekorps I, Command/Stab, Waffe Nr. 2)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 2561e : B.3.A.F.1.5. - (Bayerisches, 3 Fuss-Artillerie-Regiment, Batterie 1, Waffe Nr. 5)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 2733e : B.1.A.F.2.5. - (Bayerisches, 1 Fuss-Artillerie-Regiment, Batterie 2, Waffe Nr. 5)
* 1911 DWM, 3007e : B.1.A.F.7.H.9. - (Bayerisches, 1 Fuss-Artillerie-Regiment, Muntionskolonne 7 [Haubitzen], Waffe Nr.9)
* 1911 DWM, 3086e : B.1.A.F.10.H.11. - (Bayerisches, 1 Fuss-Artillerie-Regiment, Muntionskolonne 10 [Haubitzen], Waffe Nr.11)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 3165e : B.2T.S. 3.9. - (Bayerisches, 2 Train-Bataillon, Sanitäts-Kompagnie 3, Waffe Nr. 9)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 35xxe: B.2.T.S. 3.112. - (Bayerisches, 2 Train-Bataillon, Sanitäts-Kompagnie 3, Waffe Nr. 112)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 3734: B.2.T.S. 3.158. - (Bayerisches, 2 Train-Bataillon, Sanitäts-Kompagnie 3, Waffe Nr. 158)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 3860e : B2ST.2.76. - (Bayerische, 2 Strafanstalt, Kompagnie 2, Waffe Nr. 76)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 4089e : B.2.T.S.2.102. - (Bayerisches, 2 Train-Bataillon, Sanitäts-Kompagnie 2, Waffe Nr. 102)(change sn only)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 4454e: B.2.T.S. 3.13. - (Bayerisches, 2 Train-Bataillon, Sanitäts-Kompagnie 3, Waffe Nr. 201)
* 1911 DWM, 5060e : J.R.379.11.K. & B.3.T.S.1.203. ( Infanterie-Regiment 379, 11 Kompagnie xed out Bayerisches, 3 Train-Bataillon, Sanitäts-Kompagnie 1, Waffe Nr. 203)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 5075e: B.2.T.S.2.38. - (Bayerisches Train-Bataillon 2, Sanitäts-Kompagnie 2, Waffe Nr. 38)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 5268e: B.R.S.5.45. - (Bayerisches, Reserve-Sanitäts-Kompagnie 5, Waffe Nr. 45)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 5938e: B.2.T.S.1.9. - (Bayerisches Train-Bataillon 2, Sanitäts-Kompagnie 1, Waffe Nr. 9)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 60xxe : B.2.ST.1.45. - (Bayerische, 2 Strafanstalt, Kompagnie 1, Waffe Nr. 45)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 6014e: B.2.T.S.1.46. - (Bayerisches Train-Bataillon 2, Sanitäts-Kompagnie 1, Waffe Nr. 46)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 6605e: 19.T.S.2.28. - (19 Train-Bataillon, Sanitäts-Kompagnie 2,Waffe Nr. 28)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 6805e : 12.A.F.1.1. - (12 Fuss-Artillerie-Regiment, Batterie 1, Waffe Nr. 1)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 7008e: 19.T.S.1.144. - (19 Train-Bataillon, Sanitäts-Kompagnie 1,Waffe Nr. 144)
* 1911 DWN, 7183d: 93.R.M.G. -(93 Infanterie-Regiment, Maschinengewehr-Kompagnie)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 7533e: 121.R.4.6. - (121 Infanterie-Regiment, Kompagnie 4, Waffe Nr. 6)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 7545e: W.R.S.75. - (Württembergische Reserve-Sanitäts-Kompagnie, Waffe Nr. 75)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 7610e: R.S.2.35 - (Reserve-Sanitäts-Kompagnie 2, Waffe Nr. 35)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 7832e : 12.R.A.F.I.L.M.12. - (12 Reserve-Fuss-Artillerie-Regiment, Bataillon I, leichte
Munitionskolonne, Waffe Nr. 12)
# 1911 DWM, s/n 8617e : 121.R.5.8. - (121 Infanterie-Regiment, Kompagnie 5, Waffe Nr.8)
# 1911 DWM, s/n 8821e: I.M.XIII.3.12. - (Armeekorps XIII, Infanterie-Munitionskolonne 3, Waffe Nr. 12)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 9285e: W.R.I.M.1.23. - (W.R.?, leichte Munitionskolonne, Waffe Nr. 23)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 9403e: 1.L.B.A.21. - (1 Luftschiffer-Bataillon, Bespannungs-Abteilung, Waffe Nr. 21)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 9623e: 2.A.F.4.3 - ( 2 Fuss-Artillerie-Regiment, Batterie 4, Waffe Nr. 3)
# 1911 DWM, s/n 9656e: L.P. 157 <two lines>- (Landespolizei Deutsch-Südwest Afrika, Waffe Nr. 157)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 9772e : L.P.370 - (Landespolizei Deutsch-Südwest Afrika, Waffe Nr. 370)
*1911 DWM, sn 9823e, R.I.R.72.1.M.G.61.: (Reserve Infanterie-Regiment 72, 1. Machine Gun Company, weapon number 61.)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 9844e : L.P.343 - (Landespolizei Deutsch-Südwest Afrika, Waffe Nr. 343)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 139f : Sch.D.O.A.101 - (Schutztruppe für Deutsch-Ostafrika, Waffe Nr. 101)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 166f : L.P.335 - (Landespolizei Deutsch-Südwest Afrika, Waffe Nr. 343)
* 1911 DWM, s/n 274f : L.P.253 - (Landespolizei Deutsch-Südwest Afrika, Waffe Nr. 253)

JCS The 9656e and above and ‘f’ range 1911 DWMs are all reported from Africa. Are there any 1911 DWMs reported in the 9656e and above serial range that do not bear African unit markings? I would greatly appreciate any corrections or additional DWM and Erfurt serial number data to help in preparing the update.

(B) Was L.P. marked S/N 677e misreported/misrecorded and is actually another "f" block gun? Intuition begs for a tighter range; but, documented history usually beats intuition everytime.

JCS I have it listed as: 1911 DWM, serial number 677e, and L.P.95. This is directly from James Hellyer(RSA) correspondence. Bob makes a good point that it might be an 'f' instead of an 'e'. In the serial number listing above it is an orphan.

(D) Any info from Mr. Kornmeyer/Mr. H. Schweingruber/Joe Wotka about these police unit marked pistols?
JCS Gortz was at the forefront in obtaining the GSWA documentation-history. Hellyer obtained the serial number data. Kornmeyer was involved in obtaining some of the documentation. Who is Mr. H. Schweingruber? As I recall, Joe Wotka was not involved.

The below post contains information on the Sauer-Roth with GSWA markings. It appears that these pistols might be partly interspersed in property number with the Lugers.
Sauer-Roth w/ DSW markings sauerfan http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2757
 

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Jan,
* Wow!! I'm speachless....and that's saying something.
* Simply a WORLD CLASS response. Certainly not "Bum" any longer; but still a little "fuzzled" around the edges. If I go quiet, it's cause I'm chewing on all this and trying to digest it all! Like getting a sip from a firehose!!
* OBTW: Imperial Luger, Pg. 125 says: "In 1981, Reinhard Kornmayer. one of the world's leading Luger historians, found the R.G. designation through communications with Heinrich Schweingruber, a specialist on the history of the German Police."
* (a) JCS "I would greatly appreciate any corrections or additional DWM and Erfurt serial number data to help in preparing the update."
- In case this magnificent pistol listing came from a copy of the original source, please check #3734 as no suffix letter is shown. Also, #7183 is listed as a "d" block in the midst of an "e" block run. Thought you'd like to know.
* Again, my sincere thanks for your valuable time and thoughtfulness.
 

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Jan,

Thanks much for the consideration and effort in posting this list.

Don't forget to add my 1911 DWM 521e B.1.T.S.1.133 to your list.

Also, I think there are several B.X.T.S. 1911s in Imperial Lugers (p.121) which are not represented in this list:

B.2.T.S.1.177 (nsn)
B.2.T.S.2.76 (nsn)
B.2T.S.3.201 39xx

--Dwight
 

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Dwight
Thanks for the data. I have added 1911 DWM 521e B.1.T.S.1.133 to the list above and to the data base. The three below were listed without serial numbers or complete serial numbers and therefore do not show up on the 1911 DWM "e" "f" list above. I do not have serial numbers for these Lugers(Some collectors arw willing to supply the unit mark but not the serial number).
B.2.T.S.2.76 (nsn)
B.2.T.S.1.177 (nsn)
B.2T.S.3.201 39xx

B.2.T.S.2.76 (nsn) may be above: * 1911 DWM, s/n 3860e : B2ST.2.76. - (Bayerische, 2 Strafanstalt, Kompagnie 2, Waffe Nr. 76) with the ST=TS. A transcribing mistake?
Jan
 

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* Further observations/musing:
* Now that I get to looking at Nic's 2nd mag a little closer, it is an Erfurt accepted mag #'d 1374ns which is only slightly higher than the Erfurt high of 1303ns listed in Gortz/Bryans.
* 1911 Erfurts in the no suffix block would have come from some of the first production run. Real early 1911. Wonder if these were a "combat" test trial allocation of Erfurt's initial Assembly? Similar to what was done with some of the earliest 1900 DWM Lugers sent to the "Colonies" for test under actual field conditions.
* Do the Erfurt's reported bear L.P. unit #'s or predominately Schutztruppe Unit #'s of one colony out-post?
* Sauer-Roths with GSWA markings: Were they more likely issued to the Senior Officers who tend to carry pocket size pistols?
* WAG @ Numbers:
- (1) LandesPolizei have 566 officers in 1913: highest L.P. unit mark is 370 so far.
- (2) Schutztruppe have 140 officers; East African unit mark P.08 @ 101(DWM) so far. The 3000 "other ranks" likely bore rifles.
- (3) DWM S/N range, if contiguous & ignoring the orphan, is 9656e to 274f (maybe 401f). Qty = 618 pistols (maybe 745). The orphan might be a sample.
- (4) Erfurt S/N range, if contiguous, is 883 to 1303 (maybe 1374). Qty = 420 pistols (maybe 491).
- (5) 4 colonies have 4 Schutztruppe of equal strength = 4 x 140 = 560 pistols. 1 LandesPolizei organization split among the 4 colonies based on size/threat = 566 pistols.
- (6) 560 + 566 = 1126 pistols needed. P.08 S/N's = 1038 (1236 maybe).
- (7) P.08's S/N's are not purely contiguous based on Senior Officers preference for pocket pistols(Sauer-Roth substitue).
* Prediction: Numbers games are an interesting intellectual exercise but can be dangerous/misleading. Occasionally they align to/suggest the facts.
 

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Jan, RockingWR, and Dwight,
Here are two more for your data base of 1911 pistols. 1911 Erfurt 3730 ns unit marked 13.A.F.1.4 and 1911 DWM 5701e unit marked B.2.T.S.1.177. True to form the Bavarian marked gun does not have a hold open added while 3730 has been reworked for the hold open. If there is interest I will post picture of these two 1911's. The DWM is in relatively good condition while the Erfurt gun has seen considerably more abuse, but does retain a matching magazine.

Bob M.
 

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Jan,

Here is another 1911 DWM for your database. I thought that you already had this one. Serial Number 9823e. 72 Reserve Infantry Regiment,1st Machine Gun Company, weapon 61. This one has the appropriate halo's, light strikes on the right receiver,added hold-open. Wish I knew what went on with the left panel...

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Steve
Thanks for: 1911 DWM, sn 9823e, R.I.R.72.1.M.G.61.. I had the date and unit stamp but not the serial number. If you look on page 131 of Imperial Lugers you will see another R.I.R.72.1.M.G. with the added "1". Table updated above.
Thanks
Jan
* 1908 DWM, SN 6747, R.I.R.72.1.M.G.34. Jan C Still
------------------------- http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=915
 

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Hello all
I have a question on maddog350qt's DWM 1911 P08 SN 5701e, would it be considered a late year 1911 DWM?
My reason for asking is I have a magizine serial numbered 5701+ (no suffix), that it is numbered crosswise in small numerals on the wood base.

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Also is there a definite time frame where the mag. bottom serilization, from lengthwise in larger numbers to across in smaller numbers were applied (i.e.is there any known overlap, either large or small from 1911 to 1912 in the numeral size and direction applied to the wooden mag. bases).
Thanks for any help.
 
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