[Jan C Still]

1912 FROMMER STOP, SN 79123, IMPERIAL GERMAN ACCEPTED, 7,65 CAL. Updated 02/17/05
The Frommer Stop pistol was manufactured by Fegyvergyar, Bupadest, for the Hungarian and German military during World War I. It was an auxiliary arm in both armies. This pistol design employs an overly complicated locked breech rotating bolt action for the low powered 7.65 mm cartridge. Manufacturing continued into the 1930's. A very few of these pistols in 7,65 caliber were acceptance stamped by the Imperial German Army. Thirteen are reported in the serial range from 56176 to 91853. This is a rare Imperial German pistol.(Note: Fritz’s article cited below contains additional details)

The following list of Frommer Stop 7.65 cal. pistols accepted by the German military is from Fritz, Still data base, and r t dare:
56176
64491
64885
71255
73844 (added 02-26-05)
77020
79114
79123
79427
86816
86818
90953
91853(added 02/17/05)
130424 (questionable???)



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Figure 1. Left side, 1912 Frommer Stop, serial number 79123, Imperial German accepted.


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Figure 2. Right side, 1912 Frommer Stop, serial number 79123, Imperial German accepted.


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Figure 3. 1912 Frommer Stop, serial number 79123, Imperial German accepted. Left side details. The manufacturing inscription is “FEGYVERGYAR-BUPADEST-FROMMER-PAT. STOP CAL 7,65mm (.32)”


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44.25 KBFigure 4. 1912 Frommer Stop, serial number 79123, Imperial German accepted. Details of the Hungarian stamp, circled crown/BP / 1, and the crown/scriptic Imperial German acceptance stamp(scriptic D?).


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Figure 5. 1912 Frommer Stop, serial number 79123, Imperial German accepted, magazine bottom marked “7,65 FROMMER”


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Figure 6. Sept. 29, 1915 dated photograph showing an Imperial German machine gun crew armed with the P08 and 1912 Frommer Stop’s(far right and far left) (see page 19, Imperial Lugers).

Additional references-information:
Frommer Stop Imperial acceptance Fritz http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=929
Still, Volume I. Page 64

 

[r_t_darc]

I'm thankful for the detailed views of your Frommer.
Since yours and mine are only separated by nine #'s,
there's a good chance they share the same 'birthday'!

Rich

 

[Edward Tinker]

Jan, very unusual gun that you don't see often.

Thanks, Ed

 

[jacobtowne]

What does STOP mean?
JT

 

[broten]

My sincere apologies to everyone for not replying to this subject sooner, but now I will share the information on the Imperial German accepted Frommer Stops that I have been able to gather from my Frommer data base.
First, nearly all of the Stops in the range between 56000 and 94000 have Imperial German acceptance stamps. There are a few guns in this range that have just Hungarian commercial proofs, but most are German marked. I would estimate the number of German marked guns at 30,000. There are also a few German marked guns in the 130000 range. I refer to these as the second German contract. The Germans probably started getting the Frommers in 1916, and the second contract guns probably arrived in 1917.
There are four different proof mark/acceptance stamp variations. All marks are located on the left front of the trigger guard. The first few guns, between sn 56000 and 58000, have only a large crown/B. This crown/B is larger than the typical German acceptance stamp. I'm not positive that this mark by itself signifies military use, but, lacking any other evidence, we will assume it does. The second variation has the large crown/B, and also the Commercial Hungarian proof and an Imperial German crown/D acceptance mark. The Crown/B is in the center, and the commercial proof and crown/D are on the left and right. These guns are in the serial range between 58000 and 65000. The third variation has just the Hungarian commercial proof, and the German crown/D. These guns fall between 65000 and 94000. The fourth variation has the Hungarian Commercial proof, and a German crown/W acceptance mark. This variation is found on the guns in the 130000 range only.
The Germans did not have a special holster for the Frommer Stop. They used any of the many German made holsters for the various .32 caliber supplementary pistols. The distinct wear marks of a Frommer Stop will identify a holster.
I hope this helps. Please reply with any more questions.

Merv Broten
aka the Frommer King

 

[r_t_darc]

Hello Merv!

Welcome Back to the group, and Thanks for the information.
If anyone would know the answer to the last question above,
it should be you: What (if anything) does 'Stop' mean?
There must be some different definition in Hungarian...

And would you happen to have photos of the four varieties
of German Frommer acceptance marks, by any chance?

Best Wishes,
Rich M.

 

[Jan C Still]

Frommer King
Welcome back. Good to hear from you again. I an currently working on a revision of Volume I and am confused about some aspects of the Frommer proofs. I will ask questions when I am sufficently educated to ask them.
Jan

 

[Guest]

Jan-

You can add number 91625 to your database (I added it to my collection a couple of months ago).

 

[jacobtowne]

Do we still not know what STOP means?
JT

 

[Jan C Still]

Leonard
What are the markings on your Frommer so I canadd it to the data base? I suspect that it bears commercial Hungarian and Imperial German military C/D stamps.
Jan

 

[Jan C Still]

JT
Fritz gave the folowing answer in his thread: Imperial Frommer Stop Fritz http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3783
"Bayoned,
That hits the nail on the head!

The official Austro-Hungarian term for this pistol is :

7,65mm Pisztoly 12M

and Frommer-Stop is a synonym."

Fritz
I do not quite understand your explanation. How is Frommer -Stop a synonym for 7,65mm Pisztoly 12M? Please explain in more detail.
Thanks
Jan

 

[jacobtowne]

Jan:
Right, and Fritz said in that post that he did not know the meaning of STOP. I guess we are still in the dark?
JT

 

[Guest]

Jan-

Sorry about the delay in replying - the markings on my Frommer are identical to those in Figure 4 in your initial posting. Hungarian crown with the scriptic D above it.

Leonard

 

[kotkinjs1]

Another German Imperial marked to add to the list - 81976.