[Shelly]

I'm not sure if this is a Police Gun or, more likely, a school gun. No police safety devices are present. There are two unit marks: "P.L.II.50" which is crossed out (and I'm not 100% sure of the "II") and on the toe "P.H.10.50." and maybe the "H" is a "II" but probably not.


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[Ron Smith]

Shelly,
Görtz German Small Arms Markings pg 93. Lists P.H. as Police School. Hannover. And from what I have seen, the stamping of markings on the toe of the grip was more a police practice, as opposed to a military. The P.L. II marking is alittle more vague.
Possibly an Imperial unit , Landwehr-Pioneer-Battallion. II Armeekorps., as per Noll's Imperial German Regimental Markings. Which would seem to make more sense. Since it was an Imperial Army pistol, as issued.
This is my best guess. Ron

 

[donmaus]

Shelly,

This pistol is a real puzzle to me. Bottom line is that I really don't know but note the following:

1. There was a unit mark on the front grip strap before the P.L.II.50. was stamped. This mark was ground off but traces remain. It appears that this earlier mark ended with II.5?. I'm guessing that the "?" was a "0", the same weapon number as the replacement mark.

2. I think the mark on the heel (butt?) of the grip strap is P.II.10.50." and that the cancellation marks create the appearance of an H. It could be either but the prevalence of II in these marks makes me lean this way. Maybe a close examination by you could resolve this. Typically, the cross bar in the H is narrower than the vertical strokes.

3. Based on my research into police school marks, I am tempted to say that the grips strap mark P.L.II.50. represents the Polizeischule für Leibesübungen (Physical Education) as I ecstatically did for your C96 holster but these marks make me wonder about both cases. I don't really know what they did at this school, but I don't imagine they needed many weapons. Finding two examples in two days stretches my belief in the Good Fairy of Lugerland.

4. It's not really clear in what order these marks were made. Clearly, the ground-off mark on the front grip strap preceded the one that was lined out. However, where the heel mark fits in the sequence is unclear. I have the impression that this location was used very early in the 1920s, before the 1922 orders specified the marking location on the front of the strap. If so, this may have been the original mark, which was canceled and replaced by the ground-off mark (perhaps to conform to the 1922 orders) and subsequently replaced with the current mark on the front of the strap which was ultimately canceled, itself. The apparent maintenance of the II (unless the heel mark is an H) and the weapon number makes me feel that the gun stayed within the Command represented by II throughout all this. However, if this is true, I really don't understand the difference between the P. on the heel mark and the P.L. on the front strap.

5. Finally, the lack of sear or mag safeties indicate the gun was not in police service following issuance of the 1933 orders mandating them. It says nothing about its earlier life. I do believe the unit marks are Prussian police and the fact that they are all canceled means it was removed from police service some time prior to 1933.

Now, wasn't all this a big help?

P.S. What's the s/n of this pistol?

 

[donmaus]

Shelly and all,

Ignore 3/4 of what I said above. I have found a Luger in my database with P.H.18.97. marked on the heel of the grip strap in the identical fashion as Shelly's. This gun also has P.H.4.97. on the front strap (note same weapon number). The front strap mark is x'd out but the heel mark is not. Shelly, what does your examination of the heel mark reveal? Is it really an H?

 

[Shelly]

Don et al.

I looked at the mark on the toe with a Radio Shack 30X magnifier. I do not believe it was an "H" with strike throughs but rather 3 strike throughs over a "II."

The serial # is 4520 (no suffix).

It came "from a widow" with two FXO blank-bottomed mags in a military holster that was GI decoratorated with German uniform "pips."

Shelly

 

[donmaus]

Shelly, can you use your magnifier to coax any more information out of the ground-off mark?

I forgot to add one more difficulty in interpreting these as Prussian marks. The 1922 Prussian marking orders specified that Roman letters and numerals should be 4.2 mm high, Arabic numerals signifying centuria 3.1 mm and Arabic numerals signifying weapon numbers 2.1 mm. The Arabic numbers in these marks are too tall relative to the Roman letters and numbers, even the apparent 5 in the ground-off mark.

 

[Shelly]

Don:

I already did.

The ground off mark appears to have been - in part - a "II" followed by a "5" and there is room for anopther number or two before the next dot/period.

I can also see traces of another mark under the lined out grip strap mark (P.L.II.50.) but it is impossible the make out.

Shelly