[Guest]

I have a 1915/1920 double date Luger #6759b my father acquired during WW2.He was in the 3rd Army(Signal Corps) and was between Ragensburg and Chiem when he took it from a DP(displaced person)heading west from the direction of Czechoslovakia in the spring of 1945..It has one matching nickel,crimped wood base mag., sear safety, and an army holster converted to Police style.Holster maker is not very readable. I can make out 1915 and Potsdam. Grip strap is marked as follows: K.L.j.66 The small case j is backwards( small case T?) . The mag., holster,& tool are unit marked. Serial # 6759 b is also on the tool and holster. I'm curiuos as to what police unit this weapon might have issued to. Any help/clues would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,,, Mike

 

[Jan C Still]

Mike
I cannot find a K.L.j.66. in the regulations. Is there a period between the L and j? Check that you have listed the exact marking. A photograph of the unit marking would help.

In general the K. signifies Prussian State Kriminalpolizei. The L.j. the City or region and the 66. the weapons number.
Jan

 

[Fritz]

Hello Mike,

the instructions for the Prussian police (Berlin 1932) says, that consecutive numbers are to be applied to each weapon and other things
permanently used by the police.The stamps consist of letters, Roman numerals and Arabic numbers.Large Latin print K signify assignment to the Kriminalpolizei ( detective force). The letter j means the Latin letter i.
K.L.i.= Kriminalpolizei des Beziks Liegnitz (detective force of the Liegnitz district).
The point behind the L seams to be a stamping error of the acceptance office.
The German police expert Heinrich Schweingruber states, that "Kriminalpolizei Liegnitz" is right.

Detective force Lugers are very rare.

The opinion ( to be read in some books ) -Landjägerei Köslin - is wrong, because the Prussian inspectors never turned letters under any cicumstances.
In my collection is the Erfurt 1916/1920 double date Luger # 7266a with replacement barrel numbered to the pistol marked E/ SU25 and sear safety.
Grip strap is marked K.L.J. 120. Pics will follow later on.

Fritz

 

[Guest]

Jan, There is a period between each charactor ( K.L.j.66).. I'll try to get a couple pictures together. Thanks,,Mike

 

[Guest]

Fritz, Thanks for the information. I'll work on gwtting a couple pictures together.
Thanks,,,Mike

 

[Guest]

Jan, this pic is 74 kb. Markings are the same on front grip strap. Mike

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[Guest]

Jan, Here's the complete rig. I also have a photo of my Father wearing this luger in a M2 or M7 shoulder holster taken in 1945 while still in Germany. Early this year I found a 1915 DWM un-altered in mint condition serial # 6458b. What are the odds at finding a Luger 301 numbers off of the one Pop's brought back?,,, Thanks for your help,, Mike

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[Jan C Still]

Michael
The J is backwards. This is certainally unusual.

Does a backwards J have any meaning in written German? I would appreciate comments from someone more familiar with German.
Jan

 

[Edward Tinker]

Michael, I would like a nice picture (larger) of your dad with the luger from 1945? I collect stories of how guns were picked up and would love to include yours?

Ed

 

[Guest]

Ed, I'll try to get a picture scanned. Thanks, Mike

 

[Guest]

Jan, My wife's German aunt says the "Backwards J" is a lower case T. I know the Germans marked other countries weapons incorporated into there armed services with a lower case letter denoting country of origin. Small p for Poland, o for Austria, t for Czech., etc. Is it possible that this weapon was issued to a District ( L) that also incorporated the annexed area of Czech. and the "J" is a small case "t" indicating that? Just a thought. Thanks, Mike
Merry Christmas

 

[Fritz]

FYI:
Merry Christmas

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[Jan C Still]

Fritz
The letter in question does not look like anything in your German alphabet (see a similar alphabet on p. 143 Gortz). Or am I missing something here? The stamp on the magazine looks like a backwards J in the lower case position.
Jan

 

[klaus]

quote:Originally posted by Fritz

FYI:
Merry Christmas

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Fritz,

I'm familiar with the Gothic German Alphabet. A backward lower case "j" or what ever that thing supposed to be is not listed.

Merry X-Mas and frohe Weihnachten

Klaus

 

[klaus]

quote:Originally posted by 1915dwm

Jan, My wife's German aunt says the "Backwards J" is a lower case T. I know the Germans marked other countries weapons incorporated into there armed services with a lower case letter denoting country of origin. Small p for Poland, o for Austria, t for Czech., etc. Is it possible that this weapon was issued to a District ( L) that also incorporated the annexed area of Czech. and the "J" is a small case "t" indicating that? Just a thought. Thanks, Mike
Merry Christmas

1915dwm,

sorry, but your wife's German aunt is wrong. There is no "backward j" replacing or representing a lower case "t" in the German alphabet.

However, fact is that a 1918/1920 DWM police P08 with this strange "backward j" unit mark K.L.j.59. on front gripstrap and mag along with 2 death's head Luger holsters (1934 & 1935 military issue), a G-date P08 and some other items, all of which purportedly came from a "veterans family", were offered by a fellow in Las Vegas by the name of JUSTIN MICHAEL.
The holsters were stamped with a death's head on the lower rt/s of the top flap and marked on the underside of the flap with a "K.L.Dachau" property marking. While cleaning the inside flap the "K.L.Dachau" property marking all of a sudden disapeared.
( I have acquired this DH-holster because of my research).

Another DH-Luger-holster containing a K.L.D. police P08 popped up at the Atlanta gunshow in 1998.

Justin Michael and his concentration camp garbage went on Schwindler's List.

Source : Schwindler's List-The Saga Continues by Joe Wotka, AUTOMAG, March/August 1998.

Klaus

 

[Fritz]

Klaus,

I have heard from the weapons and holsters out of Schwindlers List described by you by the German weapon expert Gregor Wensing.

Obviously this special stamping K.L.j. isn't nevertheless a faking because I am in the possession of the following weapon .
I have already purchased it by a widow here in Germany over 20 years ago.
Provably this special weapon had always been in its family property.

Fritz

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[Edward Tinker]

Fritz, nice Weimar Police, your marking is very interesting and makes you wonder?

If more than a couple of these are marked this way and why would someone fake a marking like this, it must be with a certain group or police unit?
Fritz, since you are from Germany, does the "backward" J mean anything to you?
Or is it a mystery to you also?
both examples shown

Ed

 

[Fritz]

Ed,

sorry, but it's a mystery too for me.
A wrong or damaged die was perhaps used by the control official.
Who knows it?

Fritz

 

[klaus]

quote:Originally posted by Fritz

Klaus,

...Obviously this special stamping K.L.j. isn't nevertheless a faking because I am in the possession of the following weapon .
I have already purchased it by a widow here in Germany over 20 years ago.
Provably this special weapon had always been in its family property.
Fritz

Fritz,
please say hello to Dr.Wensing. It should be no problem to research this "special weapon" since it had always been in the property of the widows family, unless this unit mark is really related to the "Inspection" of the concentration camps. Mark my word, in this case your inquiry will go unanswered by the family.
I'm looking forward to get enlightened.

Klaus

 

[Guest]

Nice Pictures Fritz.What is your method of taking pictures for posting on this site.I would like to post a few of mine .... It certainly looks like our weapons were issued to the same unit.I'm not concerned about it being "faked" since it has been in my Fathers hands since 1944 or 1945. The hoslter is marked with the serial number on the back( upper right corner) and the inside flap is stamped in ink ( 66).Thanks for your help.
Mike