[Ron Smith]

Howdy, Some of you probably saw this on eBay. I am purchasing it from the seller. The only referrence I can find on these LZA holsters is in Walters Luger Book. Has any more come to light on them since then?

I should'nt have paid as much as I did, but the shakes & shivers got the best of me. It's a sickness, ya know!
Thanks, Ron

Download Attachment: Holster front.jpg
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Download Attachment: Holster back.jpg
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Download Attachment: Holster marking.jpg
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Download Attachment: Holster stamp.jpg
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[keoki7]

Ron, L.Z.A. was the marking of a leather allocation administration. Apparently it was marked on the leather when in the finished hide form. Somewhat like a USDA inspector using a rolling ink stamp on a steer's carcass to indicate its quality level.

 

[sauerfan]

Ron,

congratulations for this nice holster! It's the first time, a 1917 dated holster AND having the LZA markings comes to my attention.

Regarding the LZA marking there was an article in the AUTOMAG some years ago (don't remember when). But also here it was discussed recently:

http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3972

quote:The holster is stamped L.Z.A. / eagle / J. Berlin.d. According to research by Krause and Cate, L.Z.A. / eagle / J.Berlin.d. signifies: Leder-Zuweisungs-Amt Inspection Berlin which translates to: Leather Allocation Office, Berlin. The job of the of the LZA was to control leather goods production. “This consisted of supplying leather to private leather goods manufacturers for belts, boots, holsters, etc. for the purpose of producing these different items for army and navy usage” (AUTO MAG, XXXII-Issue 5, August 1999, page 114-116).

Ah... AUTOMAG 1999....

Regards

Martin

 

[Ron Smith]

Geo, Thanks! So the LZA stamp was applied prior to the construction of the holster?

Martin, Walter states also that "Karlsruhe" marked holsters are found without the "J" prefix. This one has the "J" prefix.
Any thoughts on this? And thankyou for the link, and information. The maker is Julius Jansen, Strasbourg 1917.

Ron

 

[sauerfan]

Ron,

currently, I have no thoughts on the Walter citation. I mean: I haven't seen any LZA Karlsruhe marking WITHOUT the "J.". But all is possible regarding the different LZA markings. But a 1917 dated and LZA marked holster is new to me. All others I am aware of were made in 1918.

Well, we all are students and every new day is a day to learn new facts...

Regards

Martin

 

[Ron Smith]

Martin, Thankyou very much! Ron

 

[Luke]

Ron -


Beautiful holster.

Regarding LZA, my first holster was purchased from Jerry Burney (lugerholsterrepair) and it is a dark brown beauty marked:

L Z A
(eagle image)
J. Karlsruhe

Prior to reading this I was not too sure about the "J." as it is a plain "J" without a bar across the top.

Martin -

Mine is also 1918.

Luke

 

[Luke]

Ron -

Just remembered that the "J. Karlsruhe" stamp was also applied along the rear side of the magazine pouch on this holster. Does yours have this additional mark?



Download Attachment: 1918 LZA Holster - Mag Pouch.jpg
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[Ron Smith]

Hi Luke, I don't have it yet. Just sent payment today, but the seller states on the auction that it is stamped front and back. According to Walter, the "J" is assumed to mean "In". He also says that some have an "H" prefix. Unidentified at the time of printing.
Ron

 

[sauerfan]

Ron,

the "J" stand for "Inspektion" (Inspection). Yes, there are some which do have an "H" instead an "J". The meaning of the "H" is still uncertain,could mean "Hauptamt" (main office) or something like that.

LZA offices (cities) having a "J" prefix are:

J.Bielefeld , J.Barmen, J.Erfurt, J.Breslau, J.Karlsruhe, J.Berlin

LZA offices with an "H" prefix:

H.Hamburg, H.Stettin, H.Halle, H.Strassburg


The LZA marking can be found on different, "impossible" places, sometimes only a half of the marking is present, sometimes it is sewn over, sometimes it is on the back, on the rear, on the flap - everywhere. It is assumed, that the raw hides were marked with the marking and that at the end of the war even the poor quality pieces of the hide were used to make holsters and other leather equipment.

Regards

Martin

 

[Ron Smith]

Martin,
Thankyou for the correction. As I said, the only referrence I have is Walter's Luger book. It sounds as if they may have just fed the complete hides into a roll die of some sort. And that some makers took pains to center the stamps for cosmetic reasons. Or to create a better asthetic(sic?) appearance.

One thing that I have been trying to put in the back of my mind, but need to ask. Do you know of any instances where these holsters have been faked? I certainly hope this one is not. The pristine condition makes me apprehensive.

Ron

 

[lugerholsterrepair]

Ron, I have seen many of these come thru my shop over the years and have never observed a fake. Fakers have small minds and mostly stick with set dates and makers. There are holsters out there in this kind of shape...I have a 6" Navy type II with the LZA mark on it in several places. Jerry Burney

 

[Luke]

Ron -

The condition of my LZA holster is almost as good as yours; and I am confident that it is authentic. In fact, I was so concerned about fakes that I would only buy from Jerry with the complete confidence that he would know the difference and would never sell a repro.

One other observation, Ron. From the earlier comments by Martin it does sound as if the LZA stamping was done without regard to location on the holster. However, the second LZA stamping on the magazine pouch on the side of my holster (See above picture.) is so precisely located that one has to wonder

Jerry -

I am still very happy with this one. Thanks again.

Luke

 

[lugerholsterrepair]

Luke, Glad to hear it!
I find the LZA marks in strange places. One I have is along the spine of the mag pouch. Some are under the closure buckle. I don't know how they were placed but certainly not with much forethought...Jerry Burney

 

[sauerfan]

Jerry,

this is my observation also. Sure, I haven't seen as many holsters as you will have seen and I am far away from being a holster expert (light years away!). But I've seen some LZA holsters which I always found interesting...

anyway: here's a scan of the LZA J. Bielefeld marking on the front of my Sauer model 1913 holster, which has a manufacturer marking inside the flap

v. Delffs & Helle
Braunschweig
1918

The last three letters of "Bielefeld" are only partly present. Interesting also two square and deep dents - probably resulting from a tool clamping or grasping the hide during the manufacturing process.




Regards

Martin


Download Attachment: Holster_Sauer13_LZA_Bielefeld.jpg
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[lugerholsterrepair]

Martin, Thanks for the photo of the Sauer holster! Interesting to see.

Interesting also two square and deep dents - probably resulting from a tool clamping or grasping the hide during the manufacturing process.

This is seen on every hide...I guess it is part of the stretching process. Rare to see it on a holster! I don't recall ever seeing it before.

Another interesting thing about hide marking. Since I take apart many of the holsters I get into my shop I have noticed on several occasions ink stampings on the interior. One was a huge Nazi Eagle and numbers. I am speculating this is a later type of acceptance of the whole leather hide. I have never observed anything like this on WW1 pieces but on the later WW2 holsters.

Take a flashlight and loo into the interior of your WW2 holsters, you might get lucky and see some ink acceptance marks stamped inside! Jerry Burney

 

[sauerfan]

Jerry,

regarding the internal ink stampings: interesting, most interesting! Yes, I've this also and I started a new topic

http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4403

regarding an internal marking I've seen some times before.

Regards

Martin

 

[Heinz]

Ron, Pictures of my 1918 and 1918 LZA marked holster are on this thread:
http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=430

The LZA and eagle are above a J. Koln. I do not doubt its authenticity.

 

[Ron Smith]

Heinz, That is a very nice rig.

So far all of the examples of LZA Luger holsters I have seen, are a buff brown color. Does anyone have? Or has anyone seen one that has been dyed black? How is it that they have escaped, in their original color and, in such excellent, nearly unissued condition? Any ideas?
Ron

 

[Heinz]

Thanks Ron, I have not seen an LZA in black, but then there is a lot I haven't seen