[Jan C Still]

1920 AND 1921 DATED DWM LUGERS, NEW MANUFACTURE, PROOFS, ARMY ACCEPTANCE OF POLICE LUGERS.

Starting in 1910 regulations required Army Lugers to be dated at manufacture (see Imperial Lugers page 29-30 and Gortz page 111-114) These regulations requiring Army Lugers be dated were reaffirmed by Army directive in 1923 (H. Dv. 464). (see Weimar Lugers page 18-20)

The Weimar Era Lugers dated 1920 and 1921 are of new manufacture and were not reworked from surplus Imperial Lugers. During 1920 and 1921 DWM was the only company manufacturing Lugers in Germany. Erfurt was a large government arms plant shut down by the Allied Control Commission. Simson became a repair facility of the K.98, MG 08, MP, and P.08 by Prussian Ministry of the Interior orders dated Oct. 19, 1922 (reportedly because it was a small facility and not pose the rearmament threat that Erfurt did). There is no evidence or indication that such Lugers were back dated from 1926.(Weimar Lugers page 26-27, 39).

Reupke (1991) through research of Reichswehr documents in the Library of Congress established that the Waffenant (Weapons Office) was formed by orders dated November 8, 1919. Reichswehr Troop Registers dated 1920, 1921 and 1923 list the personnel for the Waffenant and show the inspection department as Wa4. (Weimar Lugers page 20)

In summary, the above documents indicate that the 9mm Lugers dated 1920 and 1921 were of new manufacture by DWM (not reworks of Imperial Lugers). The military proofs found on them originated from the Reichswehr/Government and should not be attributed to Simson or Erfurt.

Based on observed examples, it is estimated that 80% of the 1920 and 1921 dated Army accepted Lugers went to the police. The police Lugers are identified by state police unit markings, a police installed sear safety, and magazines numbered 1, 2 or 3 in the police style. Most/almost all of these 1920, 1921 dated police Lugers bear Reichswehr acceptance stamps and proofs. This indicates that during the Weimar Era many police lugers were accepted by Reichswehr(Army) inspectors. (Weimar Lugers page 17, 40)
Jan

 

[Vlim]

Hi Jan,

Nice information and it fits the history as sketched in DWM's 1939 Company history:

"Ein auftrag der reichswehr und sicherheitspolizei auf 40 000 selbstladepistolen gab einem teil der waffenfabrik bis Mai 1921 arbeit."

"An order of the reichswehr and security police for 40 000 automatic pistols provided work for a part of the weapons plant until may, 1921."

The main reason for DWM to get this order was not as much a financial one, but a way to keep hold of production sites, supplies and machinery. This equipment should have been destroyed as a result of the Versailles Treaty and the scrutiny of the allied control commission. The production of guns for trade/peacetime use meant that they could hold on to their equipment until things improved.

 

[Jan C Still]

Vlim
"An order of the reichswehr and security police for 40 000 automatic pistols provided work for a part of the weapons plant until may, 1921."
Thanks very much for the above information. As you point out, it fits very well with the information from Weimar Lugers.

I very much appreciate experts like you on this Forum. Information like this is helpful to all collectors.
Jan

 

[Vlim]

Jan,

Thanks for the compliment, I'm happy to help when I stumble across some new information.

 

[shawn martin]

Jan & Vlim,

Thanks to you both, as you have defined for me exactly what I have. My posting (4" bbl 1921 Army ?) resulted in much usefull info. but as I have stated in my latest response, I cannot seem to figure out how to post images of my 1921 "Police/Reichswehr" Luger. I have e-mailed them to myself, and have them as an e-mail and saved as several folders but cannnot seem to figure out the next step of posting to this site. Can anyone help a technoklutz? Thanks in advance.

Shawn

 

[Jan C Still]

Shawn
If you E-mail the photographs to me I will post them. Try to remember to leave spaces out of the photo names.
Jan

 

[Jan C Still]

Shawn
This is from the Help Forum - Tech Help
section of the forum. It may help you post your photographs.
Jan

Images:
The new boards are easy to use in regards to images but are also a bit different than it was on the old boards. ONLY MEMBERS will be allowed upload images or like files. To upload an image click “New Post” or “Reply”. Near the bottom of the message box there is a paperclip icon that has “Insert an Image File [max 300k]” Click this and a new window will open. Use the “Browse” function just as you did on the old boards to locate the image you want uploaded - then press “Upload To Username‘s Post”. When the file is uploaded you will get a note in the new window that states this process has been successful. Then you will be prompted to close the upload window. Do so. In the message box you will see text that shows the image has been loaded - DO NOT ALTER THIS TEXT -

You can alter or add text to your message, just do not alter the code text. Then press post new and the image will be in your posting. Unlike on the old boards, you may now post more than one image per message. Just repeat the steps above to upload more than one photo per posting.

IMPORTANT ADDED INFORMATION! -
Please only use numbers and letters in the filenames of photos. Do not use $#&*!()#*. or the like nor use spaces as the server reads these as commands and the photos will not post correctly.

If you are using a MAC or are using certain versions of Netscape - you might not directly be able to upload photos and will have to use the IMG command. If you are on a MAC you might try posting with IE as that does seem to work with most MAC users. Sorry but there is nothing we can do to correct this issue.

Images - Thumbnails:
Unlike the old board the images load as thumbnails. This was done mainly to save loading times for those with slower connections. If you want to see a full size image all one has to do is click the thumbnail and a large - full sized image will appear. We have put a limit of 300K on all photos. If you have a file larger than this then the photo will not upload. 300K is a LARGE file and anything larger than this is simply too large.

Posting Images Using Code:
This can also be done. To learn how to do this please read the FAQ at http://www.gunboards.com as the code information is located there.

 

[shawn martin]

Jan (and other interested parties)Well, thanks to some of the swell folks (like Ron Smith) who take part in these forums, I finally got some photos of my 1921 Police Luger posted on the "1921 4-inch Army (?)" site. (Which I now know is NOT an Army) Continuing puzzle is that the weapon has a 3-digit serial number, which I hear is possible, but is it rare? Also 3 pics of the holster, which is beat up (it was captured in combat) but also apparently a police issue. Any comments from anyone who cares to check out the site would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Shawn

 

[DiehardWWII]

Hello all,
I am new to this forum and new to Lugers. I purchased my first for a shooter and hope to afford nicer, more collectable ones in the future. This one appears to have been reblued but is atleast all matching down to the firing pin, not counting the magazine (repro). Someone has also put black widow style grips on it which I intend to change to walnut.
Anyway, the reason I'm posting here is that mine is also one of these DWM 1921 dated pistols. I have been reading posts here and on other Gunboards regarding these 1920/1921 DWMs. This posting finally helped me end the debate as to whether they were made new in 1921. Mine only has the 1921 date above the chamber, no other earlier date. It is 9mm and has no police unit initials as I have seen on the metal between the grips on other guns. I have read that there were some used in the army as well as the police and that the army ones were easily noticed because every part was stamped with a number on the face of the part as opposed to in a more hidden place on the parts. Is this indeed a difference between army and police? Or is this just true between commerical and police/army? Or am I totally confused. More about the gun. It has the later sear safety. This was added in 1933 or so as I have read. Was it only added to police pistols? Could a pistol be made for the army and later end up in a police unit. It does NOT have this crown/N marking I have heard about. It has a WaA4 marking with a wavy symbol above it on the side of the toggle. It does NOT have any unit markings on it. It has a 4 digit serial with a "b" which looks more like an "e" but pics I have seen somewhere say that the "b" looks like an "e". Number is either 0433 b with a half height "0" if that is possible. Or it is a lightly or worn out stamp of a "9" as in "9433 b" In either case, the "0" is the same in both places where all 4 numbers are stamped. All other parts have the 33 on them. Lots of visible "33" on the outside of gun, I count 8 in addition to two full SNs externally. So basically, I want to know what I have, where it's been, and if I have a clue what I am talking about. Is this Army or Police or both? BTW, this forum is excellent, the beginner section (pre-registration) is very informative as well. Thanks for taking the time to read.

Download Attachment: DWM1921.jpg
182.67KB

 

[Jan C Still]

Phil
Your 1921 dated luger was made in 1921 by DWM. The exposed numbers on all parts is more an Army preference. However, some police Lugers display numbers on exposed parts. The sear safety was added by Prussian Police orders dated 1933. As the German police were expanding during the Nazi Era it is likley that this Luger remained in police service until the end of World war II.
Thanks for your post. (Such Lugers are covered in detail In "WEIMAR LUGERS."
Jan

 

[DiehardWWII]

Hello again,
I appreciate the info. I guess it may have seen both Army and Police use in its life. Any thoughts on the serial number? Are the "0" characters or any character sometimes smaller than others in the SN or is it more likely a worn or light stamped "9"
I would like to get it back to original if possible. I believe it would have walnut grips, are there different types? What kind of mag should it have. Should it have a wood or silver metal bottom? Any markings? Should it have a Serial #, partial #, unmarked, or just a "1" or "2" or something. If I looked for a holster, would it be a police or army and would it be dated?
Is Jan's book still in print?
Thanks!

 

[Edward Tinker]

See the Trader Section of this site, yes, Jan has several books that he has had reprinted.

Ed