Jan C. Still Lugerforums banner
1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
At the suggestion of ED, I'm opening a new topic for this one. I have a 1921 4-inch barrel, 9mm Para. DWM Luger, serial #257 (that's right, 3 digits)in very clean shape. It has no overstrikes, letters etc. on either the date or the serial number. The weapon was captured in the Battle of the Ruhr Pocket in 1945 after its owner, a major of artillery, engaged my father's rifle company (my dad was armed with a 1919 A-6 Browning) in owther words, I can attest to the originality of the weapon since 1945. It had a wood bottomed magazine which fell apart, but also had a metal bottomed mag. with the 257 stamped in the bottom. All major parts,have either 257 or 57 stamped on them. Gordon Hughes' book "Luger Recognition" shows only WWI reworks with ground off dates which were restamped for the police. The right side of the reciever has three proof stampings,very small, which appear to be eagles, but do not have swastikas, letters, etc. attached to them. My questions are: Is this an Army or police pistol? ( the non-matching black holster,well worn, has "SD II" on outboard side, covered by flap when closed) How many were made in 1921? (the figure 90,000 has been mentioned to me), and what is approximate worth?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,402 Posts
Shawn
Detailed photographs would help determine more about your luger. Based on your description it sounds like a 1921 dated alphabet DWM. Your Luger was manufactured in 1921 for the German Military (assuming that it does not bear a police sear safety). About 25,000 were manufactured in 1921.

The "SD II" on your holster is a Prussian State Police stamp. Does your holster have a buckle or stud closure?
Jan
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Jan. Safety is a lever on the left rear side of the frame with the usual "Gesichert" markings, which causes an arm (safety bar)to lift. Safety bar is also marked with a "57". The holster has a stud closure. 25,000 does not sound like much of a production run (limited I would imagine, by the Versailles Treaty not to mention a world war, with its loss of weapons in action)I have borrowed a digital camera, and am trying to learn how to transfer any images into this forum.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
15,542 Posts
Hello Shawn!

Here is a picture of "police safety", top "bar" is a sear safety, while down below is a magazine safety. Some police had both, some only the sear safety and fewer with none.


Download Attachment: 1914_DWM_police_parts_color.jpg
52.7 KB
Posting pictures is very easy, you choose "Reply to Topic" and then insert your photo.

Ed
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Moderator. I can't quite make out what you are talking about in your photo. When my safety is engaged, a "safety bar" (Gordon Hughes' terminology)appears and contacts the pinned unit which appears in your photo (is that the sear?) in your photo, I'm guessing the safety is NOT engaged (off). I made some comments on proofs and barrel markings and numbers in the next topic (a 1921 police owner)if you wouldn't mind checking on my entry (its quite a ways down!)It's starting to look as though I own a "police" or Reichswehr piece. Considering that the pistol was captured in combat from a middle-aged owner of a WWI Iron Cross First Class, in a holster marked SD II, (a home guard type, although a rabid NAZI)this might make sense. (he was a major). The three proofs I mention above do appear to have letter markings below them ( an A with a smaller letter, hard to distinguish possibly and r or f, followed by another A. The "A's" in capitals, the other letter small case, followed by a 4. as in Ar.A.4 . The Ar.A.4 is curved under the Eagle, and is identical in all three stampings.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,402 Posts
Ron
Re:"Jan, I have a 1921/1920 police re-work."
Your 1921/1920 rework was new manufactured in 1921 for the Weimar military or police. A 1920 Reichswehr property stamp was applied in 1921 to indicate Reichswehr property. It is estimated that approximatley 75% of these went to the police. (see Weimar Lugers page 17)
Jan
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,402 Posts
Shawn
The two right receiver eagle/letter stamps and E/ArA4 proof found on your Luger are Reichswehr acceptance/proof stamps mostly found on new manufactured Lugers dated 1920 and 1921. (See page 1, 130, 131, 140, 141, 144 etc. Weimar Lugers.)
Jan
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Jan,
Does this make the weapon a "Police" Lugar? The Reichswehr, as I understand it, was a sort of a militarized police/national guard unit (which might explain its owner as a kind of middleaged, home defense/Volks Grenadier-type). I still intend to post some photos by the weekend so you can check it out, but with the low 3-digit serial #, and its very good condition, what might something like this run? (I'd never sell it, the family history is too strong)Also, is it considered an "Alphabet" Lugar, due to the lettering under the proof stamps? And what exactly does the ArA4 stand for? Any help from anyone would be greatly appreciated. You've all been great! I've learned more in a couple of days about this weapon than I have in years!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
quote:Originally posted by shawn martin

Jan,
Does this make the weapon a "Police" Lugar? The Reichswehr, as I understand it, was a sort of a militarized police/national guard unit (which might explain its owner as a kind of middleaged, home defense/Volks Grenadier-type). I still intend to post some photos by the weekend so you can check it out, but with the low 3-digit serial #, and its very good condition, what might something like this run? (I'd never sell it, the family history is too strong)Also, is it considered an "Alphabet" Lugar, due to the lettering under the proof stamps? And what exactly does the ArA4 stand for? Any help from anyone would be greatly appreciated. You've all been great! I've learned more in a couple of days about this weapon than I have in years!
The photos will be helpful, however, if you reexamine the photo posted in this thread, you will see a small strap/bar on top of the sideplate, attached by a single small rivet at the rear. That is a sear safety. If present, your luger was a police luger at some point in its history. The holster you describe is very much a police holster having the stud closure and police markings.

The Reichswehr was a 100,000 man army during the Weimar period. Versailles Treaty restrictions are said to have limited the size of the Reichswehr to 100,000 soldiers. It seems that an awful lot of police personnel armed in military fashion existed during the Weimar period and it has been said they existed in part to sustain a large army but circumvent the language of the Versailles Treaty. Perhaps others can comment more authoritatively regarding the Weimar military and police arrangement.

Dave
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
quote:Originally posted by shawn martin

Jan,
Does this make the weapon a "Police" Lugar? The Reichswehr, as I understand it, was a sort of a militarized police/national guard unit (which might explain its owner as a kind of middleaged, home defense/Volks Grenadier-type). I still intend to post some photos by the weekend so you can check it out, but with the low 3-digit serial #, and its very good condition, what might something like this run? (I'd never sell it, the family history is too strong)Also, is it considered an "Alphabet" Lugar, due to the lettering under the proof stamps? And what exactly does the ArA4 stand for? Any help from anyone would be greatly appreciated. You've all been great! I've learned more in a couple of days about this weapon than I have in years!
Photos will help estimate condition. The 3-digit serial number is actually 3-digits and a letter. It is low only if it is an early luger in the series. I will leave it up to someone else to check the serial number range for these and indicate roughly where it falls in the production run. The ArA4 is an inspection officer/office stamp similar to the crown over letter and WaA marks on WW1 and WW2 lugers, respectively.

Dave
holster collector
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
OK Ed and Dave and anybody else who's interested. Lets see if I can embaress myself. Pictures should include Reichswehr stamps (3 on frame, one on toggle near bolt) images of a sear safety, 3-digit-no- letter serial #, Witness marks on front sight and barrel, as well as what I assume is the bore diameter and serial number under barrel. On reciever side of witness marks near lug are several stampings I assume to be inspector marks. Several images of holster should show the SD II on both sides and several number stampings on the back. Magazine may have a small Eagle under serial number which my be later era restamp, since pistol originally came with a wood bottom mag which disintegrated when I was a child. Just noticed (don't think there is a picture)there may be a small VERY faint Reichswehr stamp on the bottom of the left side frame (low end of grip)near magazine well. Back side of grip has amall "B" on bottom and small "H" in middle, which I assume are inspector stamps. Here goes:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
HELP~! I've tried repeatedly to post phots of this tyhing but I'm ready to give up. It is not as easy as people keep suggesting. I shot digital images on a Sony Mavica camera which puts them directly to a small disc. I don't have a burner, so I e-mailed them to myself from a friend's computer.I have placed them in a new file in several locations, but no matter what I try, I have not been able to transfer them to this site. WHAT AM I DOING WRONG?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
98 Posts
Don't worry about embarassing yourself. We were all new to this at one time and it is up to folks with experience to be welcoming and helpful to you. Although somewhat impersonal because of the nature of the technology, there are real people behind these messages and they are, like you, having fun with the hobby of studying lugers.

Congratulations on having a luger!
Dave
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I give up! I've tried for hours and hours to place images here. The Program even tells me its successfully downloaded the pictures, but then I lose the lugar posting, and nothing shows up. I've followed the "tips and hints", I've followed every piece of advice. No go. This is the most user unfriendly thing I've ever tried to do on a computer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,194 Posts
Shawns Luger Photos

Download Attachment: Dsc00386.jpg
57.42KB

Download Attachment: Dsc00371.jpg
64.86KB

Download Attachment: Dsc00372.jpg
62.56KB

Download Attachment: Dsc00373.jpg
59.46KB

Download Attachment: Dsc00374.jpg
62.21KB

Download Attachment: Dsc00375.jpg
59.43KB

Download Attachment: Dsc00377.jpg
58.91KB

Download Attachment: Dsc00378.jpg
58.14KB

Download Attachment: Dsc00380.jpg
64.59KB

Download Attachment: Dsc00381.jpg
61.24KB

Download Attachment: Dsc00383.jpg
63.08KB

Download Attachment: Dsc00384.jpg
62.19KB



Download Attachment: Dsc00388.jpg
63.23KB

Download Attachment: Dsc00389.jpg
63.34KB

Download Attachment: Dsc00390.jpg
62.19KB
 
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top