[shawn martin]

So far I have seen authoritative sounding number estimates on this forum concerning the number of 1921 4-inch, 9MM, Reichswehr ,"Police" sear-safetied, pistols. Numbers have varied between 25,000 and 40,000 plus. Just how many WERE made? I have seen some Luger books that don't even list the date without it being an "overstamp" (this is not). Anybody want to try the diffinitive numbers for that year DWM or maybe for the Wewimar period in General?

 

[Edward Tinker]

shawn, the "authoritative" numbers you have seen on this forum are the closest you will get. Jan's books are the top researched / shared info around, so those numbers are probably the best you'll get. Also, keep in mind that there are several variations, there might be an "estimated" 4,000 police of one variation, but a total of 40K of weimar period police. If you can, buy Weimar Lugers by Jan Still, then buy the rest, Imperial will be the next to get if you are interested in weimar guns, as many imperial then were passed to the weimar authorities.

Ed

 

[Jan C Still]

Shawn
Ed gives good advice.
It is estimated that 50,000 dated Alphabet DWM Lugers were manufactured during 1920 and 1921. Of these an estimated 10,000 went to the Army and 40,000 went to the police. These estimates are based on reported serial numbers but compare very close with information from the DWM history published in 1939.(See Table 1d, Weimar Lugers)(Also see 1920, 1921 DATED DWM LUGERS Vlim post http://www.gunboards.com/luger/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=18 )
Jan

 

[shawn martin]

Ed and Jan

O.K. Since my Luger is chamber dated 1921 with Reichswehr markings,it can be assumed that it is one of about 10,000 produced during 1920 and 1921 for the army? (dated chambers being, as I understand it, a sign of military rather than commercial issue ?)Next question: how many of those 10,000 were 9MM ? Were some made in 7.65? Considering a minor event called World War II intervened to lose/destroy some of those 10,000, just how rare would a 1921 9MM DWM 4-inch be? (understanding that such an estimate would be just that; a ballpark "guesstimate")

Shawn

 

[Edward Tinker]

Rare is very subjective. I believe you find a higher percentage of police, as many of them were in the city and not subjected to as much fighting as an army piece.

Police guns were from either commerical or army, but more likely from the army side. The dated chamber would be a military requirement, as commerical were not usually dated.

Some of your questions, such as 9mm or 7.65 are just WAGs from our side. It can be judged by how often collectors have seen either 9mm, rather than 7.65, but actual numbers are not known.

In Jans book, he makes educated guesses on numbers (I do not have his book available) and this is based on talking to other collectors, etc. So the point is, 9mm was a military and police requirement, so on those kind of guns, that is the round most likely encountered.

ed

 

[shawn martin]

Thanks again Ed. So far, I kind of infer that: a.) 1921 production was fairly limited (to me, five and a half million Garands or a gazillion M-1 carbines is a "big" production number). So B.) If 10,000 pieces in, say, a year and a half (1920-21)is a good guess, and a certain unknown percentage were 7.65 (say, maybe a quarter of them)and C.) a certain percentage were undated civilian weapons, and D.) some unknown percentage of the dated, army-issued 9mm pieces are gone due to attrition (combat, etc.)the number of surviving weapons cannot be all that large. Such a pistol in reasonable shape should command a reasonably high figure $ wise. No? (don't worry, I'm never selling mine)What say you all? Is my logic reasonable?

 

[RockinWR]

Shawn,
* You make a case for the supply side of the economic equation. However, consider the number of examples which retain equal or better condition. Consider the historical significance of the period which this represents. With less hard use, more are found in better overall condition. The three top things which drive collectible prices are condition, condition, and then condition. Rightfully or wrong, Weimar production wear a rap they were not as finely finished as say the early commercials or Kreighoff's. They did not benefit from the better technology in metallurgy and production equipment as say the Mauser pre WWII lugers. They lack the aura of large sweeping documented armed conflicts exciting the imagination as does the wartime examples. Or they do not project the power & adventure of, say, a Navy Luger.
* Also, as you know, there is a demand side as well. Orv Reichert & others wisely point out the seller must find someone who REALLY cares to get the big bucks. To a collector who wants only mint examples of each chamber date or specializes in Weimar Police, this would have appeal.
* Because of the confusing plethora of Post WWI Weimar reworks and the general lack of legitimate, documented collector categories for the Weimar P.08's which prevailed before Jan's Weimar Luger book, these pistols suffered a stigma of possibly being nothing more than clever put togethers. The old collector's adage once was: If you can't definitively ID what a P.08 was, it was probably a "1920's Commercial".
* Fortunately, Jan has organized and categorized the pistols reported from this period. Linking documentation to legitimate identifiable examples has established credibility to these in a wider segment of the population. Raised demand if you will. Some believe the Weimar pistols are the next great sleeper in the Luger stable. Time will tell; but, the market still lags what may be the true and rightful value of these examples relative to all those P.08's which survive.
* Take good care of her, document the verifiable facts which pertain to her, enjoy her for the history and memories won for you by your dad, and someday, "when you get too long in the tooth", pass her onto the next good keeper of history for a fair/reasonable price to assure she has a good home.
Respectfully,
Bob

 

[shawn martin]

Bob, good advice. Sounds like a good area to collect(with caution). Obviously, I've got to get a copy of Jan's book. Did I read that it is hard to get/out of print? Thanks for your help and interest.

Shawn