[Guest]

I have a 1915 DWM which is stamped:

6.J.I.17.(the 17 is smaller and in superscript to the first three markings)followed by JR 173 3MGK 56 with no periods after the letters or numbers.

I have interpreted this as two unit markings on the same gun. The second unit markings appear to have been applied with greater force and the J stamp here appears different than the first. I think the first stamp stands for 6th Jaeger Infantry regiment, gun #17 and the second stands for 173 Infantry Regiment, 3rd Machine Gun Company, gun #56

Am I correct on this and can anyone direct me to these unit histories and why one gun appears with both units?

Thanks for any help.

Fritz Brohn

 

[Jan C Still]

Fritzie
You are exactly right: "JR 173 3MGK 56 signifies: 173 Infantry Regiment, 3rd Machine Gun Company, gun #56" This is an interesting unit marking, the 3rd Machine Gun Company is rarley observed on a Luger.

"6.J.I.17. signifies: 6th Jaeger Infantry regiment, gun #17"
This unit marking is not according to rules and regulations. There is a 6th Jager Regiment but it was a Jager Regiment not an Infantry Regiment. The "I" may signify the company number of the Jager Bataillon. However, the number 1 is the proper indicator. Perhaps one of the real unit markings experts can help.

A photograph might help.

The serial number of your 1915 DWM would help complete my data base records.

Thanks
Jan

 

[Guest]

Thanks Jan. The Luger is at home, so I'll look it up and post it either from there or from here (work) tomorrow. I'll also try to get a photo posted ASAP.

Fritz Brohn

 

[Guest]

Jan:

The serial number is 4917a. A closer inspection of the "I." in the 6. J. I. 17. marking makes me think it could be a "1". There is no upper serif on what I thought was the capital letter "I" but I assumed this was a flaw in the striking of the letter.

I hope to get a picture for display as soon as I can get my wife to show me how to use the dang digital camera!

 

[Guest]

Here is a photo of the markings.

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I also note that both grips are marked with the last two digits of the serial number.

 

[Jeff Noll]

All, I hate to step-in after the action but 6. J. I. 17. translates to Jaeger-Bataillon 6, Kompanie I, Waffe Nr. 17. I have quite a lot of documents, dog tags, ect. The Germans frequently used "I" as a "1". I have no explanation as to this was done. Jeff Noll
http://home.earthlink.net/~nopubl

 

[klaus]

quote:Originally posted by Jeff Noll

All, I hate to step-in after the action but 6. J. I. 17. translates to Jaeger-Bataillon 6, Kompanie I, Waffe Nr. 17. I have quite a lot of documents, dog tags, ect. The Germans frequently used "I" as a "1". I have no explanation as to this was done. Jeff Noll
http://home.earthlink.net/~nopubl

Fritzie and Jeff,
"6.J.1.17." stands for 6.Jaeger Bataillon, 1.Kompagnie, Waffe Nr.17.
"6.J.I.17." stands for 6.Jaeger Regiment, I.Bataillon, Waffe Nr.17.

There is no relation between the stamping manuals and the dog tags.
If you have docs then please post them.

The 2.Schlesisches Jaeger Bataillon Nr.6 was formed on 11.21.1808, was part of VI.Army Corps and garrisioned in Oels/Silesia.
CO : Hauptmann von Rautter.
CO 1916 : Hauptmann Freiherr von Sinner.

The 6.Jaeger Regiment was formed by July 1916 out of Jaeger-Btl.5,6 and 14, which became battalions # I,II and III of JR6. JB14 was replaced by Res.JB2 by April 1917.
CO of JR6 : Major von Koeckritz (IR152)
Co 1917 : Oberstleutnant von Cranach
The 6.JR was part of the 195.ID
CO : General von Hofmann.

Source : v. Stein and Hans Kling in ZfH, Ehrenbuch der gruenen Farbe.
Felgrau.

 

[Jeff Noll]

Well, here are a few examples of 1's, 2's, 3's and I's, II's, III's being used interchangeably. The first few are dog tags, the second are pay books and third is a spiked helmet marked to JR 144 MGK II (i.e. 2nd MGK). Please note in one pay book, III is used with an ink stamping and also hand written to designate the third MGK.

The stamping of Regimental markings during the War did not always follow official regulations and, in many cases, became simply abbreviations for the unit. I have seen and own multiple items where 1's and I's have been used interchangeably (shown examples of 2's shown as II's and 3's shown as III's). The relationship between military documents, dog tags, and wartime Regimental markings are that they were all done by the same German Army during 1914-1918. This relationship, if not direct, is certainly tangential as the same Army personnel/officers were involved. Finally, all of the Iron Cross award documents I have seen use a "I" or "II" to designate 1st or 2nd class awards.

Also, if 6.J.I.17. stands for Jaeger-Regiment 6, I Bataillon (Stab), Waffe Nr.17 then 6.J.1.17. would be Jaeger-Regiment 6, 1 Kompagnie, Waffe Nr.17. I cannot find an example in the luger Regimental data base (Still/Noll - now 800+ pistols) where the use of a single "J" designates anything except a Jaeger-Bataillon?

Jeff Noll

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[klaus]

quote:Originally posted by Jeff Noll

Well, here are a few examples of 1's, 2's, 3's and I's, II's, III's being used interchangeably. The first few are dog tags, the second are pay books and third is a spiked helmet marked to JR 144 MGK II (i.e. 2nd MGK). Please note in one pay book, III is used with an ink stamping and also hand written to designate the third MGK.

Jeff,

your dog tags, pay books, spiked helmets, EKI&II, ink stamps and handwritten notes are not considered "Small Arms" and therefore not subject to the official stamping instructions.
Unit mark "6.J.1.17." has been stamped according to the regulations, while unit mark "6.J.I.17." represents a wartime formation and is not consistent with the contemporary instructions.

Klaus

 

[Jan C Still]

Jeff said: "The stamping of Regimental markings during the War did not always follow official regulations and, in many cases, became simply abbreviations for the unit. ....... The relationship between military documents, dog tags, and wartime Regimental markings are that they were all done by the same German Army during 1914-1918. This relationship, if not direct, is certainly tangential as the same Army personnel/officers were involved."

I agree with Jeff’s statement above.

An example is the use of "R".
According to weapons marking orders dated 28 January 1909: 35.R.10.104. Signifies: 35 Infanterie-Regiment, 10 Kompagnie, weapon 104. According to official weapons marking regulations the "R" signifies Fusilier/Grenadier/Infanterie-Regiment. (Gortz page 20; Noll page 56)


However, "R.J." is sometimes used unofficially by armorer’s as a substitute for the officially designated "R". Examples are given below. (Still-Noll data base)
1912 ERFURT, s/n 3612a :18. J.R.M.G.34. - (18 Infanterie-Regiment, Maschinengewehr-Kompagnie, Waffe Nr. 34)
1917 ERFURT, s/n 4718 : J.R.19 M.G 08/15. - (Infanterie-Regiment 19, leichter Maschinengewehr-Trupp)
1910 DWM, s/n 9406b : J.R.19.M.G.08./15.76. - (Infanterie-Regiment 19, leichter Maschinengewehr-Trupp Nr. 76)
1917 Lange DWM, s/n 9506b: L.J.R.19.12.K.7. - (Landwehr-Infanterie-Regiment 19, Kompagnie 12, Waffe Nr. 7)

The official regulations for the use of abbreviations for stamping identity disks (dog tags) list the following abbreviations: "J" signifies Infantry and "R" signifies Regiment (World War I Identity Tags/Disks by Peter Meinlschmidt page 26 and 27). Officially "R.J." signifies Infantry Regiment and that official stamping is used on dog tags and sometimes on weapons.

There is no "official" paper document attaching the dog tag markings to weapons; however, it is clear that the armorer’s stamping the weapons sometimes used the same abbreviations as listed officially in the instructions for stamping dog tags.

In summary, the identifications/abbreviations used in the instructions for marking dog tags are sometimes applicable in identifying unit markings on weapons.
Jan

 

[klaus]

quote:Originally posted by Jan C Still

Jeff said: "The stamping of Regimental markings during the War did not always follow official regulations and, in many cases, became simply abbreviations for the unit. ....... The relationship between military documents, dog tags, and wartime Regimental markings are that they were all done by the same German Army during 1914-1918. This relationship, if not direct, is certainly tangential as the same Army personnel/officers were involved."

I agree with Jeff’s statement above.

An example is the use of "R".
According to weapons marking orders dated 28 January 1909: 35.R.10.104. Signifies: 35 Infanterie-Regiment, 10 Kompagnie, weapon 104. According to official weapons marking regulations the "R" signifies Fusilier/Grenadier/Infanterie-Regiment. (Gortz page 20; Noll page 56)


However, "R.J." is sometimes used unofficially by armorer’s as a substitute for the officially designated "R". Examples are given below. (Still-Noll data base)
1912 ERFURT, s/n 3612a :18. J.R.M.G.34. - (18 Infanterie-Regiment, Maschinengewehr-Kompagnie, Waffe Nr. 34)
1917 ERFURT, s/n 4718 : J.R.19 M.G 08/15. - (Infanterie-Regiment 19, leichter Maschinengewehr-Trupp)
1910 DWM, s/n 9406b : J.R.19.M.G.08./15.76. - (Infanterie-Regiment 19, leichter Maschinengewehr-Trupp Nr. 76)
1917 Lange DWM, s/n 9506b: L.J.R.19.12.K.7. - (Landwehr-Infanterie-Regiment 19, Kompagnie 12, Waffe Nr. 7)

The official regulations for the use of abbreviations for stamping identity disks (dog tags) list the following abbreviations: "J" signifies Infantry and "R" signifies Regiment (World War I Identity Tags/Disks by Peter Meinlschmidt page 26 and 27). Officially "R.J." signifies Infantry Regiment and that official stamping is used on dog tags and sometimes on weapons.

There is no "official" paper document attaching the dog tag markings to weapons; however, it is clear that the armorer’s stamping the weapons sometimes used the same abbreviations as listed officially in the instructions for stamping dog tags.

In summary, the identifications/abbreviations used in the instructions for marking dog tags are sometimes applicable in identifying unit markings on weapons.
Jan

Jan,

too bad that you've agreed with Jeff.

Klaus

 

[Guest]

When all is said and done I'm still going to have to buy Jeff's book to track down these unit's histories and see if I can figure out why the same gun ended up with both unit markings.

Oh well, payday ain't to far away!

Fritz Brohn

 

[Guest]

Here are some tentative thoughts on this gun's history:

It was manufactured in 1915 and has a serial number 43XXa suggesting manufacture early in that year. Probably issued (and stamped 6.J.I.17)
in the first half of 1915.

Conjecture One (Fall Eins): The 6th Jaeger Regiment, possibly due to combat attrition, was reorganized in 1916 and possibly incorporated into the 173rd Infantry Regiment with the pistol reassigned to the 3rd Machine Gun Company as weapon #56. At this point the weapon was stamped, "JR 173 3 MGK 56" I recall having read here in these forums that 3 machine gun companies per regiment did not occur until 1916, so this would be consistant with a reissue somewhere in 1916 or later.

Conjecture Two (Fall Zwei): The pistol was lost on the battlefield, recovered and reissued. I have observed no other arsenal marks other than the original, but I have no knowledge of German procedures in such matters so I cannot discount this yet.

Conclusion: I REALLY need Jeff's book to help me in this. Any other ideas greatfully accepted!

Fritz Brohn

 

[keoki7]

Fritz, all good I think, except your last assumption (Fall Zwei). I believe that battlefield recovered weapons, pistols especially, were pretty much the temporary property of the finder. Probably only weapons issued through the company headquarters or arms room were controlled with property marks. I have seen many period photos of German troops swaggering around with pistols stuck in pants or belts, even some with lugers hanging on the walls of bunkers.

 

[Guest]

Good point George. I was assuming that the Germans did in WWI what the US did in WWII. In one of his books on the Garand, Canfield shows a GI cleaning a rifle with a 6 foot high stack of Garands behind him. Battlefield recovery and refurbishing were used effectively back then.

Fritz Brohn

 

[Jeff Noll]

All, Thought I would share my latest acqusition with everyone. It is particularly pertinent to the discussion above. This Imperial proofed M07 Dreyse, serial number 183510, is Regimentally Marked, R.J.B.11. II.M.G.K.29. <two lines - on backstrap>. Clearly this "II" denotes the 2nd machine gun company. Also, note that numbers are used to designate the 11th Battalion and the number "2" is present. Perhaps the armorer who stamped this pistol got his small arm marking instruction confused with one for dog tags? Jeff

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[klaus]

Jeff,
from the many unit markings you have listed in your book "The Imperial German Regimental Marking", only three are bearing a roman numeral which suggest a company designation. Your latest acquisition would make it four. See page 96, 100 and 142. I noticed they are all E.M.G.K.'s.

On page 70 you ID'd "3.R.I.10." Why I.Bataillon and not I.Kompanie ?

On page 78 you ID'd "107.R.I.1." Why I.Bataillon and not I.Kompanie ?

On page 89 you ID'd "R.J.R.234.I M.G.80." Why I.Bataillon and not I.M.G.Kompanie ?

On page 141 you ID'd "G.R.119.II M.G.K.65." Why II.Bataillon and not
II M.G.K. ?

You have identified unit mark "6.J.I.17." as 6.Jaeger Bataillon, I.Kompagnie Waffe Nr.17"
Please note that all letters, including the roman numeral "I" are of the proper 4.2 mm size as per Instruction Manual D.V.E. Nr.185.

"Why would the armorer use a roman numeral when he would have a set of arabic numbers available to stamp the company number ?

Klaus

 

[Jeff Noll]

Klaus, The simple answer is that the examples you correctly referenced are for infantry regiments with three battalions, 12 companies and 3 machine gun companies . The original posting referred, I believe, to a Jaeger Battalion and the Dreyse marking is also a Reserve Jaeger Battalion. Jeff

 

[klaus]

Jeff,

your reply doesn't make any sense to me at all, but it doesn't matter anymore. I've noticed the garbage cans next to all of my replies and got the message.

Klaus

 

[Edward Tinker]

Klaus, the garbage cans are on every posting, not just yours.

I value your postings very much, but do feel that others have the same right to post their opinions, and the sharing of information is good for all?

Almost never would Jan or I delete a posting, although when a posting has little value (i.e. deep sarcasam or direct attacks on another member), I have deleted a few postings.

But, that is in the minority, and I don't usually delete any postings, and to tell you the truth, your postings generally are so helpful that I hesitate to delete them.

Ed