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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
A detailed dicription of the kit is posted in the trader forum. I was'nt sure where else to post it earlier, before I actually bought th kit. Can anyone tell me exactly what it is? Pre-war, Post-war? Is it an Erma? The current value? anything? Did I get screwed on the deal? it came with both spacers, for 4" and 6" barrels. (Copied and pasted discription from trader forum).
Picked it up today. All matching, Ser# 5818 Toggle has 2 stacked crowns or EE? in an oval. Right side of link is stamped with Staghorn( antlers?) over an O ? or an S ? (tiny, and don't have my loop). 7 1/4"Barrel marked, 5.39mm and 5,4mm also larger Crown over B ? or R? and Crown over U. Crowns are of different size and configuration. Mag aluminum base Ser# 5818. In beautiful wooden case.


Thanks! Ron

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This is the best photo I can get of "Antler(s)?" Very tiny and crude.It dose'nt look like the conventional Ulm antler proof.
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The crown over the B has 3 points. Unlike the usual rounded,faceted style over the U.
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Ron, it looks like the couple of WW2 ones I have seen, but I am unsure of its actual date of manufacture...

From what I understand, post WW2 ones go for $500, WW2 and before are $800 to $1,200 but don't quote me on it, ;>)

Ed
 

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Ron,
* The encircled EE = Erma-Werke, B. Geipel GmbH of Erfurt.
* John Walter, in The Luger Book, has quite a bit of info on these "Erma-Selbstlade-Einstecklaufe" (Erma sub-calibre barrel insert) units. Sections E21, E43, E45 & E46 (Pgs. 101-105 & 108-109) cover this Kulisch patented (12 Jan., 1927; DRP-497,683) design wherein Erma-Werke was assigned the production rights.
* OBTW: 5.6mm = .22 caliber. I'm guessing the 5.39-5.4mm is the actual land-to-land barrel I.D.
* Proof marks can be a complicated subject. The "staghorn" is usually the marking identified with the Ulm proof house, a Crown/U is the view mark, & the C/B indicates the proof was accomplished on a pistol in the finished condition.
* Usually a small wooden boxed set is considered pre-war as the post war units were issued in a cardboard box. Interarmco contracted for a number of these cardboard boxed units; but, these post war S.E.L.'s will also bear Interarmco markings as well. They were not the only distributor's however: so, the proofs will usually illuminate the correct date period range.
* Congratulation. Whether pre-war, wartime, or post war, these S.E.L's are neat little accessories.
 

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Ron
Based on your photographs and description your converson unit is not Pre 1945 military. My recollection is that the antler stamp signifies post war and commercial. The crown/B and C/U as found on a .22 cal conversion unit signify post War 1948-1955(Costanzo page 182).

Your unit with box looks to be in fine condition.
Jan
 

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Hi Jan, Ron,

I'm curious about post-war Crown/B and Crown/U marks, as they went out of use after 1939. Eastern-Germany continued to use the Crown/U again after 1950, as well as the Crown/R combination for reworks. To my knowledge the Crown/B was never revived after 1939.

Therefore Constanzo's 1945-1948 timeframe conclusion puzzles me?

That and the nice condition of the set led my to my conclusion that this set could well be a post-1950 East-German rework of a pre-war Erma subcalibre set.

There is of course a possibility that this set is pre-1939, if the letter under the crown is indeed a B and not an R.
 

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Vlim
I misquoted the time span from Costanzo and have corrected it above, it should be 1948-1955.

"I'm curious about post-war Crown/B and Crown/U marks, as they went out of use after 1939. Eastern-Germany continued to use the Crown/U again after 1950, as well as the Crown/R combination for reworks. To my knowledge the Crown/B was never revived after 1939."

Thanks for the above information. Do you have any information to indicate that the antler stamp is anything but post World War II.
Thanks
Jan
 

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Hi Jan,

That mark still puzzles me. I can't find a decent reference of either pre- or postwar proofmarks that match it. It certainly doesn't look like any East-German stamp or any postwar West-German stamp and I'm wondering if it's not some sort of eagle proof?

After 1950, the East-Germans used a somewhat stylized eagle proof, to avoid both the detailed original (and re-used) Western German republic eagle and the 1939-1945 Swastika eagle. Illustrations I have, however, don't look like the proof on this set...

But all in all, the proofs on this set come closest to early post-WW2 Eastern-German, if it has a crown/R.

The following illustration shows the postwar Western-German proof houses, please note that the Suhl proof house returned to Western-German law after the unification of 1990. Prior to that, it was a DDR proof house. You will see that the Ulm proof doesn't look like the 'antler' on the SEL.

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I believe I have located the proof. The photo is from one of Ed's posts of a police magazine mark. I thought it looked familiar. The mark on the conversion is an incomplete (bottom 2/3) of the same mark.
Would this indicate that the kit was police property? And pre-war?
Ron

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Copied & pasted "Similar police magazine stamps are shown on page 78 and 79 of Costanzo. As they are found on aluminum bottom magazines, I would guess that they date from about 1925 to the mid 1930's and are found on police Lugers. As stated by Policeluger, they are found on 1908/1920/1933 Lugers often as replacement magazines."
Jan
 

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Ron
The nearest thing that looks like the proof on your converson kit is found in Costanzo on page 79 #24. He lists it as: "1920-1933 DWM police proof found on Aluminum bottom magazines. Note:large B represents District of Berlin."

There are many collectors that have looked at more of these converson kits than I. Perhaps they could comment.
Jan
 

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Ron,

Excellent find! This will get us a few steps further.

As stated before, the crown/U/B combination was in use before 1939.
The crown/U/R, together with Eastern-German stylized eagle from 1945 - early 50's.

So that were basically the two choices we had.
Since the eagle is now identified as a pre-WW2 Police acceptance stamp, the stamped parts of this set can easily be dated to the 1936-1939 German Police.

Early pre-war sets came in a slightly larger box, complete with cleaning tool. This box set without cleaning tool was available from 1936 onwards, so that provides us with the post-1936 time frame. The Crown/U/B marks were used until 1939, so that's the next limit.

Postwar Erma-sets have different boxing and different stamps, so this isn't a postwar commercial set. What I'm not sure about is the quality of the box and especially it's hinge. I've seen examples of boxes with a 12-screw layout, rather than the shown 8 screws. Perhaps the hinge was replaced one time or another. The size and layout of the box is correct.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Vlim, I removed the hinge. There are 4 pairs of identical countersunk holes. As if done to accommodate two different hole patterns. Top and bottom. Each pair drilled approx 1/4" apart as if done with a jig.No measurement marks, that would be seen if done by hand. Top and bottom bevels have an underlined 6 hand written in ink on them. The lid has a O stamped in the magazine recess. And a V in the toggle train recess.Inspection marks? I hope this is helpful.

Ron

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Ron's converson kit box looks like the military or police small box (pre 1945) units (8 hinge screws) shown on page 132(military) or 173 (police) of Third Reich Lugers. However, these boxes are of unfinished(no oil stain or varnish) wood.

Note: during the late 1970s and 1980s replica .22 cal conversion Kit boxes were offered for sale. Understand that they were exact in detail but never had the opportunity to examine one.
Jan
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
However, these boxes are of unfinished(no oil stain or varnish) wood.

Jan, I think someone has put a TRU-OIL type finish on it. There is a thumb print in the finish on the back edge of the lid. As if they tried to pick it up, before it was dry.
Ron
 

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If other 8-screw hinge designs exist, then I think this one is okay. It just looks so darn good and that always makes me nervous. I guess that police issue might explain the lovely condition, as European police are no gun-swingers :)

The 1980's and 1990's kits are different in details. Erma used paper boxes and a competing design by J. Uhl had a wooden box, but of different size and configuration.

You may try to 'sniff' the wood to see if it smells fresh or a bit damp. But nevertheless, the contents of the box are allright!
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Thankyou everyone for all of the assistance and research. It's deeply appreciated. Especially Vlim and Jan, Thankyou!
Ron

Just noticed that photo of military issue kit,pg 383 Lugers at Random. Has 8 screws.
 
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