Jan C. Still Lugerforums banner
Cancel

A DUTCH LP08 HOLSTER?

2747 Views 17 Replies 7 Participants Last post by  Pete E., 
J
4
Download Attachment: lp1.jpg
27.32 KB
Figure one. This is a particularly well made and sturdy LP08 holster, dark burgundy in color and almost identical in construction to the standard LP08 holster. No maker/user marks detected.


Download Attachment: lp2.jpg
28.97 KB
Figure two. The major difference from other LP08 holsters is the single layer of leather on the rear side, so it is missing the usual horizontal stitching midway down the backside.
There are other small differences on the outside of this holster such as a more robust knob on the pull strap and a larger brass stud for fastening the cleaning rod flap. In general it is made of thicker leather and is distinctly heavier than the standard LP08 holster..


Download Attachment: lp3.jpg
68.58 KB
Figure three. On the inside, again similar construction except the closure for the tool pouch is different. A snap is used rather than the stud/hole closure.


Download Attachment: lp4.jpg
64.9 KB
Figure four. The snap has a peculiar pattern on its outside aspect. This snap appeared similar to the snaps used on a number of Nico van Gijn’s Dutch luger magazine pouches that are shown on page 384-85 of Benders book ”Luger Holsters and Accessories”. I sent a picture of this holster and snap to Nico van Gijn and he responded that this snap design is indeed characteristic for Dutch items and would indicate that this Lp08 holster probably was Dutch made. He added that the Dutch liked the LP08, the Dutch Army tested LP08 in early trials although it was never officially adopted by military. Also the Dutch navy used the LP08, really liked them and even tried (unsuccessfully) to order more from Germany post WW1.
John
See less See more
Reply
Save
Like
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
Vlim
Hi,

Don't want to be ruining the party, but this button type was typical on Dutch leather because it was typical on just about any pre-WW2 leather item that came out of Germany.

The presence of this snap button is not enough evidence to declare it 'Dutch', I'm afraid. There is some evidence of the use of long lugers in the Netherlands, but these were mostly Navy models (04) from impounded post-WW1 German stock.

I believe you have a very nice example of a commercial LP08 holster, but I'm sure the holster-experts can help you further. A Dutch origin is not impossible, but pretty unlikely.

I see the button has an inscription on the inside. Can you provide the details of that inscription?
Reply
Save
Like
K
Jcoe, our friend Vlim is dead on the money. Your holster certainly has nothing about it to proclaim Dutch heritage. On the other hand I have strong cause to claim Dutch heritage but we'll leave that for another time.

I would suggest that your holster was put together in the 1920's for export to the USA.

If you want to see a holster with many similar traits, go back in this subject column to "Luger Holster with Three mag Pouch". The title may be wrong but it's in early May.
Reply
Save
Like
P
http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1594
Reply
Save
Like
K
Thanks Pete. I wish I knew how to do that.
Reply
Save
Like
Edward Tinker
You have to have the address bar visible (click on View and see Toolbars, and ensure that Status bar has a checkmark next to it)

Then click once on the URL, the part that says at the top of your screen http://www.gunboards.com and RIGHT click and choose copy. Note: right click is the right part of the mouse ;>)

Then come down to this Quick Reply area and RIGHT click and PASTE

i.e. http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1976

You can have two or three Interent Windows open, I usually have 2, sometimes 3 or 4 open at once. Then once you copy that URL it stays in your memory / clipboard until you copy something else. Much easier to show than it is to tell you in writing.

Easy can do GI.

Ed
See less See more
Reply
Save
Like
K
youbetcha'plentyquick MP.
Reply
Save
Like
lugerholsterrepair
John, I have to concur with George and Vlim...I believe it is post war export to the U.S. It is certainly made much differently than your standard wartime German Artillery. This is an indication to me that it was not held to the standards of that time, acceptance by the Military authorities.
Vlim has a good point about the snaps. They were a common pattern found throughout Europe. You are right, they are used on Dutch leather items but I suspect this is because they were available to all as a standard hardware item not because they were uniquely Dutch.
The Dutch did not particularly like the P-08. They didn't like it so much they tried to re design it pretty extensively. Ultimately they turned it down in favor of a smaller pistol, the Browning I believe. Of course they did purchase some but it was never officially adopted by the Army. I don't believe they ever purchased any LP-08's. Jerry Burney
Reply
Save
Like
J
Thanks for the many comments on this holster. I have been out of town, but did hear back from Nico. Since our correspondence years ago, he still has not seen a non-Dutch leather product with that particular pattern of stamp and he would be very interested to see such an item. George, your holster’s snap is certainly pertinent. I cannot see from your picture if the snap has this pattern or not. Good eyes, Vlim, there is a “K.M.” stamped on the inside aspect of this snap. No doubt that the ubiquity of snaps would make it difficult to associate the presence of a particular snap with a specific place of use. This makes Nico’s empirical results especially intriguing.
John
Reply
Save
Like
K
9
Okay! I got up and went up three flights of stairs to photograph the snap. Then I photographed the flip side and noticed some markings. So I brought the damn thing down to my office and used a pencil eraser to clean up the flip side and took another photograph.

Download Attachment: MVC-008F.JPG
102.38KB

Download Attachment: MVC-009F.JPG
96.32KB

Download Attachment: MVC-010F.JPG
91.7KB

Download Attachment: MVC-011F.JPG
102.05KB

Then I thought to photo the private purchase trench knife I have, so back up stairs I went. This snap has no markings on the reverse. The inscription on the blade does a pretty good job of dating this piece as war time. It reads:

John E. Paulson, M.D.
1st., Lt. M.C.A.E.F. 1918

It was a war trophy either taken by or given to a medical corps doctor.


Download Attachment: MVC-012F.JPG
61.42KB

Download Attachment: MVC-013F.JPG
58.21KB

Download Attachment: MVC-014F.JPG
65.25KB

Download Attachment: MVC-015F.JPG
72.09KB

Download Attachment: MVC-016F.JPG
66.35KB
See less See more
Reply
Save
Like
Vlim
Hi,

A similar snap appeared on a German panzer shoulder holster that appeared on auction a while ago, this holster also had no Dutch links. Reports of these snaps on German P38 holsters are also reported.

Download Attachment: a1lughle.jpg
32.49KB

I believe these cases prove that the snap pattern is not typical for Dutch leather only.

Now, the inscription of the snap rim should get us further in determining which manufacturer(s) made these particular snap buttons.
So far we have J.H.H. - C.S. and K.M.

The K.M. inscription is intriguing indeed.
See less See more
Reply
Save
Like
K
Vlim, I think that the K.M. is more likely Kateesha Madison than it is Kriegs Marine. Just a little humor here.
Reply
Save
Like
Vlim
haha,

I was thinking more in the lines of 'Koninklijke Marine', which could indeed point to a Dutch Navy contract.

Did some quick browsing for either German manufacturers or still existing ones. Nothing so far.
An interesting fact is that pushbutton production can be done on ammunition making machinery (done by DWM amongst others).

Mhh, come to think of it: Tom A recently purchased a Dutch pouch, produced in 1940. Perhaps he has some info about possible inscriptions in his (or rather his pouch's) buttons?
Reply
Save
Like
Joop van de Kant
Vlim, Geo,

Reading this, I went also upstairs to look to the one and only Dutch holster I have (pics in thread Dutch contracts) and indeed, the pushbuttons have op top excactly the same design as those of Geo. On the inside there are two characters 'RG',.
Could it be that the holster factory in Batavia (now Djakarta) bought the pushbuttons in Germany, at the same source? Or could it have been a strictly standard design, used by more factories in Germany, recognizable by the different characters on the inside?

It seems an interesting new thread to develop further...
Reply
Save
Like
Vlim
Hi,

I lean towards the idea that there was one German or Eastern-European pushbutton (druckknopf) maker who produced buttons with this particular design. It is not uncommon to find custom property marks on contract batches. The fact that pushbotton manufacture was pretty close to cartridge making, probably points towards one of the ammuntion makers, excluding DWM since they only produced during the 1920s.

JHH CS can point towards Czecho-Slowakia?
RG = ?
KM = Koninklijke Marine ?
Reply
Save
Like
P
Hi John,

Have you had a chance to forward a copy of this discussion to Nico ? If yes, does he agree or does he still feel this LP-08 holster might be Dutch...?
Reply
Save
Like
J
Hi Pete,
Have not been in contact with Nico recently, however I do know that he was interested if there were other sightings of these snaps. I will sound him out and direct his attention to this thread if he has not already seen it. Or send him a copy , if I can figure out how to do that.
B Regds,Johm
Reply
Save
Like
P
Hi Joe,

Let us know what you and Nico decide.

If you "click and drag" this entire thread to highlight it, you can cut and paste it to a Word or WordPerfect document. Text, photos, and even this Forum's unique format will transfer over. Then you can email the document to Nico...if he does not participate herein...
Reply
Save
Like
1 - 18 of 18 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Jan C. Still Lugerforums
A community dedicated to Lugers, Central Powers, Axis, Allied and related WW-I and WW-II pistols by their scholars, collectors, owners and enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about the history, technology and extraordinary background associated with these design masterpieces.
Full Forum Listing
Explore Our Forums
New Collectors Board German: German Mfg. (non-P08) Pistols & Holsters. 1933-1945: Mauser Lugers. Army, Navy, Police German: Foreign Mfg. Pistols and Holsters. 1900-1918: P.08-Army Lugers
Top