A Little Different Finnish Civil Guard Used DWM Luger

422 Views 19 Replies 8 Participants Last post by Pistol, 4 d ago

capt14k

Discussion Starter · 8 d ago

15

I recently purchased the personal Luger of a decorated Finnish Civil Guard Officer made by DWM with customized Grip dated 1937 with Finnish Åström made holster and shoulder stock. I also received a good amount of documentation. Including a photo of the man carrying the Luger during the war. Just sharing and open to any comments. Bought it from the grandchildren at a very reasonable price.

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1 - 20 of 20 Posts

2bnag

· #2 · 8 d ago

nice

Edward Tinker

· #3 · 8 d ago

I love it, great, wonderful addition to a collection!

Reactions: 1

Doubs

· #4 · 8 d ago

I like it. I'm curious about the serial number on the front of the frame. Does it have a suffix letter? I ask because of the lazy crown/N stamps that normally are pre-war commercial. Is it possible that it went through the Simson factory. I understand that Simson used the lazy C/N stamps post-war. It has been re-barrelled and refinished at some point.

It has history and apparently provenance but would be a very interesting Luger on it's own. I do like it.

gunnertwo

· #5 · 8 d ago

That would be a nice addition to anyone's collection. Thanks for the "Bring & Brag".

G2

capt14k

Discussion Starter · #6 · 7 d ago (Edited)

Doubs said:
I like it. I'm curious about the serial number on the front of the frame. Does it have a suffix letter? I ask because of the lazy crown/N stamps that normally are pre-war commercial. Is it possible that it went through the Simson factory. I understand that Simson used the lazy C/N stamps post-war. It has been re-barrelled and refinished at some point.

It has history and apparently provenance but would be a very interesting Luger on it's own. I do like it.

Yes m suffix. Barrel just has the one mark on the side no numbers. I assumed it was replaced, but thought it would have been a Tikka barrel? Finns maybe replaced with extra German Barrels?

nomadr

· #7 · 7 d ago

Love the nice clear photo. What is on the belt just left of the Luger in the circle?

Bob

Pistol

· #8 · 7 d ago (Edited)

Interesting grip medallion?....and stamp on holster. Nice.

Doubs

· #9 · 7 d ago

capt14k said:
Yes m prefix. Barrel just has the one mark on the side no numbers. I assumed it was replaced, but thought it would have been a Tikka barrel? Finns maybe replaced with extra German Barrels?

Prefix or suffix? If suffix it would likely have been one of the 5,000 M23 DWM Lugers purchased by Finland in .30 caliber. If prefix, that becomes yet another mystery. The M23 Lugers should have a standing C/N; not the lazy C/N. The M23 Finn Lugers were made across numerous suffix letters as they were delivered in multiple lots. I own two alphabet commercial Lugers in the m suffix range. One is 1800 number before yours and one is 5300 numbers after yours. Both have standing C/N proofs. Yours is indeed a mystery Luger and very interesting for many reasons.

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capt14k

Discussion Starter · #10 · 7 d ago

nomadr said:
Love the nice clear photo. What is on the belt just left of the Luger in the circle?

Bob

That looks to be a very rare M27 Civil Guard Puukko because the grips look like the light artic birch. Army NCO would carry a m/19 Puukkopistin in a similar manner. However they were eventually also carried by the Civil Guard, Navy, and even Police. They are also pretty rare. Especially the original longer versions that were carried by higher ranks.

capt14k

Discussion Starter · #11 · 7 d ago (Edited)

Doubs said:
Prefix or suffix? If suffix it would likely have been one of the 5,000 M23 DWM Lugers purchased by Finland in .30 caliber. If prefix, that becomes yet another mystery. The M23 Lugers should have a standing C/N; not the lazy C/N. The M23 Finn Lugers were made across numerous suffix letters as they were delivered in multiple lots. I own two alphabet commercial Lugers in the m suffix range. One is 1800 number before yours and one is 5300 numbers after yours. Both have standing C/N proofs. Yours is indeed a mystery Luger and very interesting for many reasons.

View attachment 712881

My mistake it is a m suffix and yes it is 7.65mm parabellum. I also an n suffix that is a 9mm Parabellum conversion with a Tikka Barrel, and o suffix 7.65mm that the barrel is also numbered matching and is double SA marked.

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Pistol

· #12 · 7 d ago

I don't think it is an early 'lazy N' that are found on early 1908 commercials before 1913. Aren't these C/N marks found on some reworks? There is one also on the top of reciever near rhe extractor. One on barrel and two on the left side of receiver. The pistol also has a stock lug and is numbered in the military fashion........but no apparent date or marks on right side of receiver.

Doubs

· #13 · 7 d ago

Pistol said:
I don't think it is an early 'lazy N' that are found on early 1908 commercials before 1913. Aren't these C/N marks found on some reworks? There is one also on the top of reciever near rhe extractor. One on barrel and two on the left side of receiver. The pistol also has a stock lug and is numbered in the military fashion........but no apparent date or marks on right side of receiver.

As I stated earlier, I believe that Simson reworked Lugers and used a lazy C/N stamp. However, at this late date it would simply be a guess as to who put them there. The locations of the C/N stamps are also unusual. It's also very unusual for a Finn M23 to have the serial numbers stamped in the military manner. A most unusual Luger.

Pistol

· #14 · 7 d ago

The horizontal C/N proofs on the left reciever, frame, and side barrel could be 1920s Suhl proofs. I don't see a proof on the breech due to the refinishing.

Do you have a photo of the serial number on the front of the frame?

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capt14k

Discussion Starter · #15 · 7 d ago

2

Pistol said:
The horizontal C/N proofs on the left reciever, frame, and side barrel could be 1920s Suhl proofs. I don't see a proof on the breech due to the refinishing.

Do you have a photo of the serial number on the front of the frame?

Yes

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Joda

· #16 · 6 d ago

Isn't that grip medaillon from the 1937 world shooting championship in Helsinki? So either it was taken off of one of the championship M28/30 Mosins (the medaillon is often missing from the stock) or it even was a pistol used in the competition (don't know whether there were also pistols). Either way, it's REALLY cool.

Concerning the lazy N: I am sure the Finns bought some former imperial military Lugers refurbished and rebarreled to 7.65 in Germany. As Doubs pointed out, the serial number placement is clearly military. Probably the chamber date has been ground off.
I have a Finnish Luger with the same lazy N proofs: It still has a 1915 chamber date, the Freistich for the LP08 sight and even an Erfurt RC-marking. I am sure it was delivered as civilian 7.65mm gun after ww1 but I have no idea whether it was sold to Finnland by DWM or any of the Suhl companies (Simson, Krieghoff, Franken&Lünenschloss or other).

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Joda

· #17 · 6 d ago

For comparison of the medal: 1937 World Championship military rifle match: m/28-30 rifle serial numbers (reposted) | Gunboards Forums

capt14k

Discussion Starter · #18 · 6 d ago

Joda said:
Isn't that grip medaillon from the 1937 world shooting championship in Helsinki? So either it was taken off of one of the championship M28/30 Mosins (the medaillon is often missing from the stock) or it even was a pistol used in the competition (don't know whether there were also pistols). Either way, it's REALLY cool.

Concerning the lazy N: I am sure the Finns bought some former imperial military Lugers refurbished and rebarreled to 7.65 in Germany. As Doubs pointed out, the serial number placement is clearly military. Probably the chamber date has been ground off.
I have a Finnish Luger with the same lazy N proofs: It still has a 1915 chamber date, the Freistich for the LP08 sight and even an Erfurt RC-marking. I am sure it was delivered as civilian 7.65mm gun after ww1 but I have no idea whether it was sold to Finnland by DWM or any of the Suhl companies (Simson, Krieghoff, Franken&Lünenschloss or other).

Yes it is from World Championships. We are unsure if it was a pistol used there or if he had medallion placed in the grips.

Joda

· #19 · 5 d ago

Just read that there were indeed Parabellum pistols delivered from Sk. for the competition:
1937 World Shooting Championships in Helsinki | Gunboards Forums
If I understand CH's quote correctly, it would have been a total amount of 80 pistols.

One the one hand I would have expected that the Finns would have chosen relatively new pistols for the competition (since the rifles were brand new) and not some reworked Imperial German surplus guns. On the other hand, in 1937, most standard M/23 pistols were already about 10 years old. With the army not buying any Parabellums any more (waiting for the Lathi L35) I am not sure where Sk. got it's pistols from in the 30ies.
Where there commercial Lugers in 7.65mm readily available from Mauser? If not, it may well be that those lazy N reworked guns were actually ordered from alternative sources after DWM/BKIW transferred production to Mauser? Lots of ??? but really interesting gun, thanks for sharing!

Reactions: 1

Pistol

· #20 · 4 d ago

If you do a search on this and the other forum you will see these particular horizontal C/N proofs in these locations (side of barrel, left receiver side and under it on the frame, and on the breech block. Many identify them as Suhl proofs. Could be 1920s or early 1930's.

These C/Ns should not be confused with the horizontal, "Lazy" C/Ns on early 1908 commercials until approximately 1912/1913..........interesting pistol and grips nonetheless.

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