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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello all,
Before I go into the pistol, I would like to say what a great time I had at the "Big Reno Show". I was able to spend a couple of days doing what I love to do, which is talk guns, look at guns and buy guns. I was able to spend time with my friend and fellow collector "Lloyd in Vegas", our very own Jan Still and his wife, Randy Bessler, Wally Morishige, Robert Hogan and many others. I hope they enjoyed the show and company as much as I did. I hope you all had a safe trip home.
Now the M7 Roth Steyr. I am a WW2 Army and Infantry pistol and revolver collector. I don't stray very far from that. I always seek out and enjoy WW1 era pistols that have some ties to WW2 as many of them were used in that conflict also. Any WW1 pistol that shows issue, rebuild marks or capture papers from WW2 always catches my eye. as I was strolling around, I was taken by a very nice M7 Roth Steyr made by Waffenfabrik Steyr in nice condition. I have read that the M7 Roth Steyr was still used in WW2 and in Jan's "The Pistols of Germany and its Allis in Two World Wars" there is a story of one being captured from a German soldier in 1945. Now, what really interested me was the fact it was issued to a infantry unit. Another plus was that its original acceptance stamp of "Wn Eagle 9"(1909) was over struck with "Wn Eagle 36"!! A rebuild proofed in 1936, kind of rare and very close to total war in Europe. The price was fair, so I grabbed it up. Roth Steyrs are very interesting pistols. Well made and unique looking. Infantry marked!! 36 rebuild! Right up my alley.
In the bag it went and the search continued.
That evening, Lloyd and I were looking over our new treasures and imagine how suprised I was!!
Please look at the photos.



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Now, see anything strange in this next photo. I sure did after I cleaned it and looked at it under my 10x loop.


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Well.....?????
Dean Gizzi
 

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By golly a Police gun. I keep hoping to find one with the ole S lion # or better yet a RCS 22 or something like that. I almost made the trip to Reno this time around. I had a ride, a place to stay, just couldn't miss sons first holy communion today and tomorrow. Some priorities take precedence. Someday I will find a Czech marked one of these. Wonderful pistol.

Robert
 

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the pistol was reissued to the Austrian Army in 1936.
HV 36 means "Heeresverwaltung 1936" - Army Administration 1936.
In my opinion the pistol was "knighted" with the E/L stamp after the war by profiteers. I never saw a combination like this.
In the last years there were several pistols on the German marked with exact the same E/L stamp ( Astra 400, Walther PPk,FN 10/22, etc. ).All this treasures were sold by the same dealer.

Fritz
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Robert, Too bad you didn't go, it was a fun show for collectos to go to just to see everybody. You have the same problem I do, everything falls on the same weekend! I didn't think there were too many guns to choose from. But some fun stuff to look at.

Fritz,
I too, am always suspicious of any markings which are out of the ordinary. It sure sounds like they were faking a lot of guns in Germany in the recent years.
Thanks for the info on the HV, it was hard to tell if it was a "W" or "H" until I new what to look for.
Just for further info, it appears that the E/L is under the last coat of bluing. No white or burnished areas around the stamp and it is filled with blue. This last coat of bluing does show thining, holster and high edge wear. Is this how the faked Eagle L stamps are Fritz? Any close ups of those stamps for comparsions?
Question: I guess the close cousin of this pistol would be the Steyr Hahn. How does the sequence occur on those pistols? According to "Axis Pistols" a lot were converted to 9mm and marked with an Eagle L and Eagle N. It states that Mauser did the reworks (Whittington also states that Steyr did some of the work). I could see the E/N for the converted barrel. How about the E/L, was this stamped before or after the refinsihing of these pistols ( I think a lot were reblued)? Any photos would help. I am not a collector of Police pistols and know very little, if anything, about them. I am more interested in the 36 rebuild and Infantry markings. Any info helps.
Dean
 

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Dean,

here are two close ups from my Steyer 12 with police acceptance.
There are obviously some differences to your E/L stamp.
Sorry, I cannot send pics of the faked stamps, because I am collecting the data of faked pistols only before I came in possession of my digital camera.

Fritz

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Fritz,
There is no doubt that the E/L stamps on your pistols are different than mine.
Do those appear re-blued? The stamps are very sharp. I have never seen the line between the Eagle and "L". I need to pay more attention to the stamps. Thank you for posting the photos. I will try to back track this Roth Steyr and keep you guys posted on the info.
By the way, your camera takes great close-ups.
Dean
 

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Dean,
I am very glad that I could help you. The line actually isn't normal.You watch very exactly.It is true the pistol has become reblued.
According to my information nearly all Steyer 12 converted to 9mmP were refinished and reblued.
The camera is a Minolta Dimage 7i with 5 million MP.The pics are worked on with Adobe Photoshop 7.

Fritz
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Robert and Fritz,
Thanks for the great info and photos. One thing for sure, those are three different dies used. You could make a collection just out of different dies!
Here is me thinking out loud.
Why would the Germans not use the M7 Roth Steyr? No parts available?
Wrong caliber? Not convertable to an accepted caliber? They used Czech .380s and 32 French Longs. The Austrians were still using some M7s. The 36 date shows some were around just before occupation. What would the Germans do with captured ones? Crate them up? Good gun for police stationed in Austria. But, would they proof it?
What would happen to 100 or 300 or even 500 pistols proofed and issued to a company of German military police that was over run by the Russians? Trade them to Americans in Berlin area for smokes? Who knows?
I just collect common pistols, how did I end up with this?
Dean
 

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First: I had an excellent time at the Big Reno Show. I enjoyed meeting the members of both Luger Forums and had excellent discussions with a number of old friends and new collectors. My wife and I sort of crashed the Luger Forum dinner (may have been a mistake). In spite of that, we were both well received and had a very pleasant dinner and discussions. (I was surprised by an unimportant exception.)

Dean, Fritz, and Robert
M7 Excellent photographs, presentation, and discussion.
I briefly examined your M7 Roth Steyr just before you bought it. Randy was just opening a box of guns that he purchased and were finally being delivered (to the gun show). I asked to look at any unit marked Imperial pistols and Randy handed over a Langehan and what is now your Roth Steyr. I briefly looked over the Roth Steyr and noted to Randy that it was over stamped with had a HV1936. I missed the faint police E/L. Excellent find that might be correct.
Jan
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Jan,
Just wanted to say thanks again for taking the time to look over the M7 Roth Steyr and talk pistols in general.

Fritz,
Great photo and thanks for posting it. It is always nice to see period photos.

For anybody still interested in this pistol, here is some more info.
Skipping the Nazi/German poice markings for now. I was able to take the pistol apart and look it over.
Most parts were "K" marked showing manufacture by Steyr. There was one "R" marked part which shows it was made by "Fegyvergyar" in Budapest, the other maker of these pistols. This is probably common and correct on a late reissue.
The serial number on the outside has had a couple of numerals restamped. I was able to look at the serial number on the inside of the side plate and compare them. See photo.
Here is something interesting. If you look at Douglas Jr's post under "1900-1918: Austria-Hungary Pistols & Holsters", his serial number is 6631 and the frame is solid on the right side, no pin showing. I was told the visible pin showed later in production. My serial number is 6782 and the pin is visible. Pretty close. Looking at the part that is the pin on the inside of mine shows it to be a newer piece. Look at the condition of the strawing as compared to the other straw parts, and the fact that there is no "K" that I can see. See photo. This may have been added later and the frame modified and buffed. This may be why the serial was restamped. It is in the same area. Thoughts?
Also, the "IR 15" on the grip disk is probably the "INFANTEREGIMENTES Nr. 15" per an Austro-Hungarian military history website I looked over. I will try to post more about the unit if I can find any more info. Dean


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