Jan C. Still Lugerforums banner
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
In the previous thread on 1914 DWM Without Stock Lug, the triple C/X proofed lugers were discussed and the variability of DWM luger produced at this time (1913-1914)was noted.The heterogeneity among this group of lugers is indeed interesting and here is another example of a different P08 variant that falls within this triple C/X group.



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This is a 1908 DWM serial no 69457, that falls within the reported serial range of 69169-70840 for the 1908 commercial army(IL p25). It has commercial serial placement and lazy C/N proof on left receiver, barrel and two foreward toggle pieces. Looks like a commercial with long sear and hold open.



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Barrel also has caliber proof.





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Right receiver bears the triple C/X proof, but the 26b power proof (heraldic eagle) is missing on receiver, barrel and toggle.


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Magazine bears serial no 69951, suggesting that P08 69951 could have could have been a fellow traveler with 69457.

According to Imperial Lugers (p25),the 1908 commercial Army does have commercial serialization but does not bear the commercial proofs that are found on 69457. Therefore 69457 does indeed represent a true commercial Army, yet it is not completely Army either, because it is missing one of the proofs, the power proof. Jan has reviewed earlier the process of DWM proofing during P08 production (detailed in Gortz and Bryans book). In this sequence, the power proof (26b, the heraldic eagle) is the penultimate proof and 26c (which is the third C/X to the right) is actually the last and final proof “after shooting in”. One would expect only two C/X on this receiver if power proofing failed. Perhaps surplus triple C/X receiver parts were used without modification for commercial production? Factory screwuup during this tumultuous time? Any thoughts? Any more examples of this variation out there?
 

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WAG speculation suggests that the gun was completed past power-proof as a Commercial gun, then inspected and accepted by Army inspectors who accepted the Commercial proof and saw no need to re-prove the gun (thereby avoiding the stress of two additional over-pressure proof rounds).

--Dwight
 

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John
Your Luger described below,is an interesting pistol.
1908 "Army Commercial", sn 69457, C/X C/X C/X on right receiver; lazy C/N on left receiver, breech block, and middle toggle link; commercial style sn placement long sear bar, barrel with 8.83 gague, and C/N proof.

Your suggestions that it resulted from "Perhaps surplus triple C/X receiver parts were used without modification for commercial production? Factory screwuup during this tumultuous time?" seem plausible. I tend to favor the former.

I have one 1908 Commercial Army, sn 70149, in my collection that is unit stamped, R.I.R.72.1.M.G.23., to an infantry machine Gun company. This contradicts a suggestion made on page 25 of Imperial Lugers that these 1908 Commercial Army Lugers were used by some kind of police service during the Imperial Era.

An odd 1908 Commercial(shown page 54 Imperial Lugers), serial number 61256, bears full commercial proofs and has an Erfurt style test eagle on the front of its trigger guard. Perhaps it is a result of the July 1918, orders to stamp supplementary pistols in service with an Imperial Eagle on the front of the trigger guard (Gortz page 129).

Thanks for your excellen photographs and interesting presentation on a rare Imperial Luger.
Jan
 

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Dwight
"WAG speculation suggests that the gun was completed past power-proof as a Commercial gun, then inspected and accepted by Army inspectors who accepted the Commercial proof and saw no need to re-prove the gun (thereby avoiding the stress of two additional over-pressure proof rounds)."

There was a shortage of Navy Lugers during 1913 and 1914, Gortz Walther page 51. This probably does not apply here, but it seems a little less likely that in a time of military Luger shortage that militaries would somehow be made into commercials. The transition from commercial to military as you state above seems more likley.
Jan
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks for your comments Dwight and Jan. The idea of military accepting the commercial proofing for the “power proofing” is certainly appealing, especially when there was a shortage of military lugers as Jan mentioned. If this indeed happened, would this luger be classified as "commercial-commercial" army?
Perhaps this wasn’t such a rare event. I show a somewhat later DWM product, this one a 1914, with stock lug, serial 72050 which has some similar characteristics.




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1914 DWM commercial serial 72059 has commercial serial number placement, and bears lazy C/N proofs on left receiver, barrel and two forward toggle pieces. It has an early long sear bar and holdopen. Looks like a commercial.



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Barrel also has full serial number and caliber proof.





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Right receiver bears three imperial proofs but the 26b power proof (heraldic eagle) is missing on the right receiver, barrel and toggle.

P08 72050 is similar to P08 #71812 shown in Weimar lugers page234. P08 #71812 was altered for police service, but is C/N proofed,and on right receiver bears the same three gothic acceptance marks as 72050, without the power proof mark (heraldic eagle).
Dwight suggested that these C/N proofed lugers with imperial proofsX3 (minus powerproof) represent routing of commercial lugers to military production. This rerouting practice may not be uncommon during the hurried military production in 1913-1914.
 

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Jan,
* Not to divert attention from this wonderful presentation & the questions it poses; but, this thread is starting to sound familiar to the 1940 Army Banner discusion we had pre-crash. The situational similarities & actions taken are striking.
 

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Bob
The 1940 Banner Army is covered in the section 1933-1945: Mauser Lugers, Army Navy Police; Three 1940 Dated German Army Banners page 2, 09/26/2003.

You point out an interesting similarity.
The photographs are reposted below:

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Download Attachment: 1940BannerArmy4.jpg
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Above, 1940 Army Banner, sn 1220x, it has two acceptance/inspection stamps on the right receiver and a E/N commercial test proof on the left receiver. Similar to the 1908 Army commercial shown by jcoe above.
Jan
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks Bob and Jan,
Was there any consensus reached in the precrash discussion on this possible "army acceptance of commercial proofs"?
John
 
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