[r_t_darc]

This subject thread started under discussion of the holster
for my Beholla pistol. It is B S marked under the flap, which
presumably signifies it as the property of the Braunschweig
office of the Sicherheitspolizei. (As reported on page 178 of
Cate's Volume II of Sauer Pistol books.)

I've noticed that this particular property mark exhibits quite
a bit of variation in form. The three examples in my collection
are pictured below. The first is a Weimar reworked pocket auto
holster (with no other manufacturer or date markings whatever.)

Download Attachment: MyBehollaHolster.JPG
192.22KB


The second's a view of the receiver of my double-dated Kar 98AZ.



Download Attachment: Kar98BSmark.JPG
129.85KB
The third is more unusual, and is found on the receiver of my
S/42K dated rebuild of a Gewehr98 rifle:



Download Attachment: Gew98BSmark.JPG
97.62KB

Another forum member mentioned his rebuilt Gewehr98 has a B.S.
without number on both the receiver and on the gun's unit ID disc.
The same member reported he also has a Luger pistol magazine
which is marked with a B.S. stamp followed by an inventory #.


Lastly I've included a (rather poor) scan of the example which
is shown in Cate's book of a Sauer Behorden with B S & # stamp.
It is shown with its holster, containing a matching property #
plus an inkstamp of "Brschwg." over "Si.Pol." inside of a box.



Download Attachment: SauerPistolBScloseup.JPG
218.55KB

So we have versions of BS, B.S., and B. - S. without inventory
numbers, plus BS and B.S. with the number. My questions are:

1. Does anyone else have another example to show us here?

and

2. Is this all the work of one single police office, or are two
(or more) of them becoming confused by the mists of time?

Any thoughts or theories are welcome for more discussion ...

Rich M.

 

[donmaus]

Rich,

See this thread including the links listed in my 4/30 reply: http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4522

 

[donmaus]

Rich,

See this thread including the links listed in my 4/30 reply: http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4522

 

[r_t_darc]

I remembered seeing one more BS marked gun photo
in a book, so have included it here with the rest:


Download Attachment: MauserBookBS.JPG
127.69KB

It also has scanned very poorly, but came from
Ball's "Mauser Military Rifles of the World" .

One thing's for sure- If this was indeed one single
department, they must have been quite a large one,
judging from the wide variety of weapon types and
the fair numbers of surviving marked specimens.

 

[r_t_darc]

Oh, and for whatever it may be worth-
Each of the above examples seems to have
been stamped with a slightly different
typeface on the marking die(s), also...

Rich

 

[CBrown]

I've seen an Ortgies w B.S. stamp; I think I reported it earlier.
Some folks maintain that B.S. = Bahnschutz but on what basis I do not know.
There is a version of the BS in which the letters are semi-script and intertwined; usually found stamped on stocks of G98s/K98a s, as I recall.
Just a notion: if it is a Police mark there should be bayonets with the same stamp.

LATER: Checked w owner of Ortgies. It is 7,65mm SN 201199, marked ahead of left side slide markings with intertwined BS.

 

[BogeyB]

I have a Erfurt 1918 mag marked: B.S.236 with #2 on the toe. Sorry no pics....

BB

 

[r_t_darc]

There should be some bayonets so marked, but I have
yet to find one. Not that I have been looking closely
for one, but it would make a good accessory for either
of my Mausers if I did come upon an example...

More Luger magazines than pistols themselves appear
to be around. At two per gun, that would make sense.

Keep the examples and theories coming!

Rich M.

 

[r_t_darc]

I'd like to see the intertwined version, if anyone
happens to have a photo of such an example to post.

rich

 

[CBrown]

For an interwined BS try the Mauser board...

 

[donmaus]

Ron Smith flagged this one to me: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=50552806. I was recently in the main train station in Munich and noticed that the police were wearing jackets with "Bahn Schutz" on the backs. Does anyone know whether this term was in use in the Weimar era?

 

[SCHUPO]

Don,

Bahnschutz was terminology used during the time of the Weimar Republic but typically as one word and used in the generic manner. That is to say, officially there were Bahnpolizei or Bahnschutzpolizei; or security units such as the Zugwache or Bahnwache, as well as militarized railway construction units.

Here is a postwar beer stein with the railway police title and logo on it.

Download Attachment: Stein Bahnpolizei.JPG
40.63 KB

I don't know about the "B.S.#" markings being related to the railway police. The identifiable markings I have seen on railway police weapons has been "R.B.D.Hl.#" for Reichsbahndirektion (location) Waffe # or "D.R.#" for Deutsche Reichsbahn Waffe #. There are others but they typically indicate the parent organization such as the railway (Deutsche Reichsbahn, Bavarian Eisenbahn, Berlin U-Bahn, etc.) rather than the generic Bahnschutz. Here is a railway police CZ27 pistol marked to the "DR" as shown in Jan's books.

Download Attachment: DR CZ27 Reichsbahn markings.JPG
27.82 KB

And here is a railway police S84/98 bayonet marked to the "RBD" of Kassel. This marking will also be found on railway police carbines.

Download Attachment: marking RBD KS.JPG
38.3 KB

I don't know what the "B.S.#" markings might represent.

George

 

[donmaus]

George,

Thanks for the reply. B.S. may rank alongside of H.P. as a tough one to decipher.

 

[Heinrich]

Friends,
The only designation for the police of railway stations was
"Bahnpolizei". Now they have been replaced step by step by
private (commercial) security companies.

Don did see these people in Munich.

 

[SCHUPO]

I can't see photos for the original question above but I presume the markings read "B.S.#" If so, I wonder about the police of the Republik Baden. Perhaps the Baden Schupo? Of course Braunschweig is also possible. I will see what I can find.

George

 

[r_t_darc]

I've re-submitted my photos for this thread, so they should
all be working links now. I saw one or two other BS marked
items since the original posting, but still don't have a
definite answer to the BS mystery, either.

Regards,
Rich M.

 

[SCHUPO]

Rich,

Thanks for reposting your photographs. This is very helpful.

I think the Braunschweig Sicherheitspolizei stamp on the holster with matching "BS" markings certainly lends credence to the theory that these are Braunschweig Police markings. While it is certainly possible that these could indicate Baden or Bremen (not Bavarian) police markings, the stamped holster certainly helps with an identification in this one case. Over a period of time, the Braunschweig Polizei evolved from the Sicherheitspolizei into the Schutzpolizei during the time of the Weimar Republic. These "BS" markings could have remained intact, without change, from 1919 to 1936 when the police were nationalized. There are no known marking regulations for the Braunschweig Polizei but the ones for the Bavarian Police are known and these do not correspond to them so they can be eliminated from the running.

Here is a period color plate for the Braunschweig Sicherheitspolizei. Virtually the same uniform continued to be worn when the force evolved into the Schutzpolizei.

George

Download Attachment: Braunschweig SIPO.jpg
44.78KB

 

[jps-s]

The Behörden Sauer shown earlier in this correspondence was in my collection and found in Volume II of my Sauer book. The markings B.S. 80 indicate the Sauer was property marked by the Braunschweig Schupo. The matching number holster (208401) was made by J. MAUZ & Co. G.M.B.H. BRAUNSWEIG. The serial number of the pistol puts its production in late 1934 or early 1935. This time period was before the unification of the German police in 1936. Braunsweig was not in Prussia and was not armed by the Prussian police department headquartered in Berlin. I would imagine Braunsweig police could have (and probably did) use whatever weapons available. Jim Cate

 

[AL]

from a post I added too:....also sn is 191245
http://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?24544-BS-marked-7-65-Ortgies

Al