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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello Gents, Here's another Holster I just happened across, & it appears to be in unissued condition. It's your standard style, West German Post-War P.1 / P.38 Hardshell Holster, but in a beautiful chocolate brown color. It's fully maker marked & dated 1962. It's the style we've all observed before, the 'drop pattern' model, with the colored rivets across the top flap. Exactly like the Black Holsters that came along with all the purple P.1's imported during the 1980's & later. I surmised that perhaps it was designated for W. German Luftwaffe issue, but that's just speculation on my part based upon the color ? As always, any comments will be very much appreciated. THANKS

Best, Dom P.
 

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dpast ---- I have a post war P 1 holster it is black with a date on the inside flap 1965. It is a very well made holster of heavy leather and it houses one of my war time p. 38's. Wish it were brown.
 

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A friend of me bought a number of P1/P3 holsters, they were all black, I'd love to see a brown one :)
 

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To my knowledge, none of the main W.German users of the post-war P1 ever had brown leather holsters and gear. All used black, plus there was white for the Feldjäger (MP) and the Wachbataillon (honor guard) of the Bundeswehr.

PS: Don‘t know much about the Austrian Bundesheer, but a cursory image search seems to indicate they use or used brown leather. That might have included P38 holsters sourced in W.Germany.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
THANKS AGAIN !! Yup, That's an exact duplicate of my Brown example !! I too was unsure as to it's possible issue, but it's obvious that they were produced for some particular unit ? What's unusual is the fact of just how few examples we've encountered as opposed to the Black, & yes White versions. Is it possible they may have been produced for the he's Luftwaffe, as they do have a history of preferring Brown leather, right ? But, as with so much of our research, it remains speculation until someone amongst us manages to definitively confirm it. I will say though, they are beautifully constructed & finished items !

Best, Dom P.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I figured that I should include the Markings on mine 'Brown' P.1 Holster. The only markings I can find are on the Reverse, & they're in 3 Lines, pretty much as follows:

C. RIESE
Berlin
1962 / 2

Also, there are the inked inscription, 'MEB', under the Top Flap, which probably indicates it's issue to someone, at some point in time. Although the Holster remains in very nice condition, it has in fact been used, & obviously issued.

Best, Dom P.
 

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There are plenty of these C. Riese holsters dated 61 and 62 to be found in black. Riese obviously made those for “export” to the Western part of Germany as nobody in West Berlin needed P38/P1 holsters before later 1963, apart from a handful of svw-marked P38’s issued in the French sector. So too the brown ones, which could have been for another country or even a privat/corporate armed “Werkschutz” in W.Germany or adjacent country.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Absalom, Interesting point indeed. I honestly never thought of that possibility, as by the early 1960's W. Germany was really starting to work its way into the overall European market economy. Just out of curiosity I'll check the markings on the Black version that accompanied my Berlin Polizei issued & marked P.1. ( And yes, it's one of the Manhurin production examples, for at that particular point in time, that's what was mandated for issue. Serial # 225114, 1963 mfg. ) When I find it, I'll report back. THANKS

Dom P.
 

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Standard issue with the West Berlin P1 was the flap holster with suspension rings, mostly Wunderlich. Not the West German pull-down style on belt. See bottom left on photo.

Trousers Motor vehicle Coat Peaked cap Hat
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
THANKS, I appreciate the photo. I need to look in the box, as it's in there with my P.1. Honestly, I can't recall if its the 2 D Ring type or not ? I have all my Berlin grouping packaged up together, complete with an early 1960's dated Berlin Polizei Tschako & some related items. I'll go check in the morning & report back. Take care,

Dom
 

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I own an unused white P1-Holster from the MP from the German Bundeswehr...
This rig is unused and NOS. I own it round about twenty years. This rig is additionally completed with the litte pocket for the hsndcuffs...
Automotive tire Automotive lighting Tire Motor vehicle Wheel

Guitar accessory Batting glove Automotive lighting Automotive tire Motor vehicle

Just a little side-contribution to this theme...
Tom
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
THANKS Tom, I always love to view any related items. IIRC, I saw these unissued White Polizei Rigs for sale for a few years, perhaps as you say, about 20 or so years ago. Remember, back in the 1980's we all watched with interest the W. German Police Pistol Adoption Trials. As so typically German, some of the different Lander selected different designs, although most of the included candidates were reliable weapons. I've had & carried many of the examples, but just couldn't get to like the H&K P7 Series, although it was an functional design, well as long as you didn't use the early generation Winchester 115 gr. Silver Tip HP's. My personal 2 favorites at the time were perhaps the Walter P.5 & Sig Sauer P.6. Once Germany's Police chose their selections, the BW initiated their own Trials & IIRC, they adopted the H&K USP Series. That's why the U.S. surplus market was literally flooded with all the old, now surplus German Pistols for quite a few years thereafter. I recall ordering a dozen Walther P.1 & P.38's back in 1984 when I had the "The Gun Cellar", in Johnston, RI. They came in Interarms provided red colored boxes, numbered to the gun, with the black 'Drop Rigs' spare magazine & of course the instruction sheet. I still have my boxed set around here somewhere, with my Manhurin mfg'd 1963 proofed Berlin Polizei P.1. Well, THANKS AGAIN Tom !

Best, Dom P.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Here's an very interesting example of the P.38 / P.1's & Holsters we've been discussing. I just came across this today, & apparently they won't allow you to download a large photo, only a smaller one. I was however able to copy the Link, so that will will have to suffice. In addition to be one of the 1980 - 1990's surplus W. German pieces, if you look closely you will observe that the included Holster appears to be BROWN, just like the limited examples we have come across. In all years of watching these surplus models, I honestly can't recall ever observing a pistol with the Brown Holster, only Black. ( ALSO, Moderators, PLEASE accept my apology is my inclusion of this Link is against the Rules here ? I know some Forums get a bit upset. )


Trigger Electronic device Gun barrel Gun accessory Machine



LINK: Walther P38 P-38 9x19 9mm Luger 1961 German Germany ORIGINAL + EXTRAS C&R! - Semi Auto Pistols at GunBroker.com : 919511650
 

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That‘s a very nice “pre-P1” police edition with cancelled BMI stamp. The serial on the magazine bottom is interesting. If the price were more realistic, say half of the starting bid, I’d be interested.

You’re right, that’s definitely the same type of brown holster we’re discussing here. Of course, with these Interarms “sets” you never know when gun and holster first met up. But it does appear these were indeed issued.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
THANKS Absalom, I was hoping you saw this Post. And, you echoed my sentiments exactly in reference to 'where' & at 'what point' did these two items next attached ? I mean I've been watching these surplus P.38 / P.1's coming into the Country for about 40 years now, & simply can't recall ever noting anything but a Black example. However, the question remains if this Brown Holster & Pistol were actually purchased together, or just for the sake of argument, perhaps this unit was missing its Holster, & the Seller, or Dealer simply added what he had laying around ? Also, I always thought the BMI mkg indicated BW issue, or property, as opposed to Polizei issue, although I may indeed be wrong ? My example, which was definitely Police issue, doesn't exhibit any BMI mkgs. These surplus P.38's remain an under-documented, & little studied area of collecting. It does appear that they're currently rising in price though, as evidenced by what some as asking for them right now !

Best, Dom
 

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However, the question remains if this Brown Holster & Pistol were actually purchased together, or just for the sake of argument, perhaps this unit was missing its Holster, & the Seller, or Dealer simply added what he had laying around ? Also, I always thought the BMI mkg indicated BW issue, or property, as opposed to Polizei issue, although I may indeed be wrong ?
As a general rule, being reason familiar with W.German issuance practices in the 1970s/80s, I would say generally none of the BW/Bw or BMI pistols ever had such a thing as “its holster”. Holsters were issued as personal kit to the individual, pistols as needed from the armory. Pistols were part of unit inventory and assigned to a position, so as someone was reassigned or promoted, even within a unit, he was assigned a different pistol, but not a new holster.

So what wholesalers/importers like Interarms got were cases of pistols, however packaged, and boxes of holsters, and somebody in a warehouse in the US put the pistol, any paperwork and spare mags with it, and a holster from a big box into the nice Interarms box, serial-numbered the box, and off it went to the dealer.

As for the BMI: Bundesministerium des Innern, Federal Ministry of the Interior, in charge of gun procurement for the Bundesgrenzschutz, the Federal border police, main user of the police edition of the P38/P1.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I should give my P.1 another look, as I don't recall observing any Crossed out or X'd out stamps / markings. However, we must remember that my example is not the same as some of the other pistols, as it was manufactured, or at least assembled by Manhurin in France expressly for issue to, & use by the W. Berlin Police Force, as the way I understand it, they were allowed any German produced weapons, due to Treaty restrictions put it place intially by the Allies during the Post War era. In fact, I picked mine out of about 20 boxed examples, specifically for it having documentable Police lineage. I almost chose a very early, 1956 IIRC P.38 that day, but just couldn't pass up a Berlin marked piece. A few years later I met a former member of the Post War Berlin Police & he gave me a beautiful Thank along with a few other items for my collection. He also definitively confirmed the photos of my Manhurin P.1 as being the exact pistol he previously carried on duty. I still remember his name, Werner Schulde, & he used to sell on eBay years ago.

Now, In reference to the overall import logistics of the Interarms haul, I totally agree with you as to that particular sequence of events. Without a doubt, the red, IA Boxes were produced domestically here, although I do harbor some suspicions regarding exactly how the accompanying pistol magazines were shipped over here, as I've observed many pistols exhibiting not # matched, but 'date matched' magazines with their pistols. Yes, they may have separated spare magazines by their dates, & then upon their final, pre sales packaging were matched by date to the respective pistol ? Yet, that particular method surely doesn't appear to be an efficient way to accomplish that task ? The magazines may have been shipped over here with the guns, as although creating a heavier shipping weight, it did alleviate the task being performed over here ?

And, you are indeed correct about the 'BMI' mkg. I however never attributed it to use on the local, Lander Police issues, only on the BGS issued pieces. ( Although somewhat off topic, I have a nice 1965 dated, 'Rhineland Pfalz' marked Walter PP, which doesn't exhibit any BMI mkgs. Markings are: 'RP' within Circle, definitely Factory applied prior to bluing. I also came with it's Holster & black plastic Walther #'d Box / Case. )

I truly look forward to sharing all my odds & ends here, via photographs of course. Every day as I dig deeper, I'm coming across assorted Holsters, etc. So, please stay tuned as they say ! THANKS AGAIN for your very kind assistance.
 
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