Jan C. Still Lugerforums banner

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Discussion Starter #1
Enclosed I am sending a comparation table with Army test SN from German & Dutch Trials. Order & delivery dates from Dutch trial pistols are known and verified (Bas Martens). All the Dutch test pistols were ordered 12/1904 and delivered 4/1905 (7.65 mm) and 8/1905 (9 mm).

Look on the table and you can see several SN, close placed. Three pistols side by side and 3 years difference?
SN, DESTINATION, CALIBRE, BARREL LENGHT, ORDERED - DELIVERED

22219 Dutch Army Test, 7,65 mm, 96 mm barrel, 12/1904 - 4/1905

22221 Dutch Army Test, 7,65 mm, 96 mm barrel, 12/1904 - 4/1905

22225 Dutch Army Test, 9 mm, 96 mm barrel, 12/1904 - 8/1905

22235 German Army Test, 7,65 mm, 96 mm barrel, 1902 ??

22240 Dutch Army Test, 7,65 mm, 96 mm barrel, 12/1904 - 4/1905

22244 German Army Test, 7,65 mm, 96 mm barrel, 1902 ??

22263 Dutch Army Test, 9 mm, 96 mm barrel, 12/1904 - 8/1905

22286 German Army Test, 7,65 mm, 96 mm barrel, 1902 ??

22289 Dutch Army Test, 9 mm, 96 mm barrel, 12/1904 - 8/1905

22296 Dutch Army Test, 7,65 mm, 96 mm barrel, 12/1904 - 4/1905

22314 German Army Test, 7,65 mm, 96 mm barrel, 1902 ??

22323 German Army Test, 7,65 mm, 96 mm barrel, 1902 ??

22329 German Army Test, 7,65 mm, 96 mm barrel, 1902 ??

22335 German Army Test, 7,65 mm, 96 mm barrel, 1902 ??

22339 Dutch Army Test, 9 mm, 96 mm barrel, 12/1904 - 8/1905

22348 German Army Test, 7,65 mm, 96 mm barrel, 1902 ??

22360 Dutch Army Test, 7,65 mm, 96 mm barrel, 12/1904 - 4/1905

22361 Dutch Army Test, 9 mm, 96 mm barrel, 12/1904 - 8/1905

22362 German Army Test, 7,65 mm, 96 mm barrel, 1902 ??

22364 German Army Test, 7,65 mm, 96 mm barrel, 1902 ??

22365 German Army Test, 7,65 mm, 96 mm barrel, 1902 ??

22385 German Army Test, 7,65 mm, 96 mm barrel, 1902 ??

For German army test were delivered 55 (15 with grip safety) pistols, for Dutch test 109 pistols in 7,65 mm and 55 in 9 mm calibre. Total 219 pistols. Following group of Cartridge counters is beginning at 22401. In my humble opinion the group of mixed Dutch and German test pistols started by 22180. 22181 + 219 = 22400.

Mr Görtz in last printing "Die Pistole 08" demostrate as a true Army test 1902 (one from forty) Luger SN 9903 from G. Sturgess collection without grip safety and with "Gesichert" marking in high position. No army acceptance. In my humble opinion it is a fake/rework, because no other Luger with "Gesichert" marking in high position found in this SN range.

The second Luger from G. Sturgess collection the Mr. Görtz demonstarte as a true Army test 1902 (one from fifteen) is Luger SN 10199 with grip safety. This pistol is accepted on frame and reciever Crown / V. Rear toggle was changed.

All the Army test Lugers have short receiver and short frame with thin upper part in safety lever section. No difference between 7,65 or 9 mm! (German Army test 2223X)


Download Attachment: 2.JPG
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"Common" 1900 Lugers are equipped with long receiver and long frame with thick upper part in safety lever section.(Swiss Army SN 1166)


Download Attachment: 1.JPG
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P.08 and derived Lugers differs from both types of frame: Reciever is short and short frame has thick upper part in safety lever section.
(Navy 1917)

Download Attachment: 3.JPG
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Jan "Hoba" Balcar
 

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Jan (Balcar)
You raise some excellent points. As you point out, the delivery dates/test dates between Lugers produced consecutively are in significant disparity, The years 1902 verses 1905. Perhaps the following information concerning ranges of dates and serial number of the approximately 230 Lugers in the serial range 22219 to 22450 will help explain some of the disparity. This range includes the German Army test Lugers, the Dutch test Lugers, and the American Army test Lugers (American Eagle-cartridge counter). Information on these ranges is as follows:

THE 1902 GERMAN ARMY TEST LUGERS:
Reported serial range: 22244 to 22385 (interspersed with Dutch test)(Imperial Lugers page 17)
Range of test dates: April 1902 to April 1903 (Imperial Lugers page 17)

THE DUTCH TEST LUGERS:
Reported serial range: 22219 to 22361 (interspersed with German Army test) (As reported by Jan Balcar from Bas Martens)
Range of delivery date: Ordered December 1904, delivered April 1905 (7.65mm) to August 1905 (9mm)(As reported by Jan Balcar from Bas Martens)

THE 1902 AMERICAN EAGLE TEST LUGERS (cartridge counter)
Reported serial range: 22402 to 22450 (Imperial Lugers p. 210)
Ordered/arranged: October 15, 1903;
Note: the following quotes are from various US military documents dated 1903/1904; December 5,1903 delay in delivery “caused by the work of attaching the Powell cartridge indicating device to the pistols.” “Shipped per S.S. Albano from Hamburg, Germany, March 30, 1904, in 5 cases, numbered 299 to 303 marked DW&M., each case containing 5,000 cartridges.”(Meadows, Scott M., U.S. Military Pistols 1894-1920 page 376-377)

A summary of the above documentation and evidence to date establishes the following:
1. The German Army tested Lugers during April 1902 to April 1903 in the serial range: 22244 to 22385 (these are interspersed with Dutch test Lugers).
2. The Dutch ordered Lugers December 1904. These were delivered April 1905 (7.65mm) to August 1905 (9mm). The serial range of these Lugers is: 22219 to 22361 (interspersed with German Army test Lugers). As the German and Dutch Lugers were interspersed in the same serial range they must have been manufactured about the same time assuming that production was sequential by serial number.
3. The United States Army ordered Lugers October 15, 1903 that were boxed and ready for shipment March 30, 1904. The serial range of these Lugers is 22402 to 22450. If one assumes that the above Lugers were produced sequently, then the 1902 American Eagle Test Lugers were produced after the Dutch and German Test Lugers.

The American test Lugers (cartridge counter) were boxed and ready to ship (March 30, 1904) 8 months before the Dutch order was placed and 12 to 16 months before the Dutch Lugers were delivered (April 1905 to August 1905). The German Army tests were conducted (April 1902 to April 1903) from 12 months to 24 months before the American test Lugers (cartridge counter) were boxed and ready to ship.

This disparity in production/delivery dates is difficult to explain but not unprecedented. Clearly the Dutch Lugers were produced and on the shelf long prior to the Dutch ordering and shipping. As the German test Lugers and the Dutch Lugers were produced at the same time(serial numbers interspersed) both had to be produced prior to the end of the April 1902 to April1903 German tests. While the delivery/production dates are not what one would expect they are at least possible.

There are other less likely possibilities to explain this disparity in dates:
1. The Lugers tested by the Germans in 1902/1903 were not the 1902 Lugers with the crown/D stamp in the serial range 22244 to 22385. To my knowledge the only connection with the 1902/1903 tests is the German Army crown/D found on these Lugers and the approximate date of production.

2. One of the dates of shipping, delivery or testing is in error. The dates for the American Eagle test Lugers (cartridge counters) are well established by period United States Government documents.

3. The above discussed Lugers were somehow not produced in sequence.

Jan (Still)



Jan C Still
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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks Jan.
Here is my speculation: It was made 250 pistols, consecutive numbered for foreign & home Army Tests purposes.
German Army comes at first. DWM people selected 55 (as ordered)superb pistols regardless of SN. Americans comes some time later and become consecutive numbered pistols. Dutchmans are last nad they become the remaining pistols.



Jan "Hoba" Balcar
 
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