[Guest]

Hello All,

I saw a 1918 Artillery Luger at a show about three weeks ago, and am now considering buying it. The gun seemed very clean, and the bore is good, but I have a couple of questions about it. First, it is marked "Germany" on the barrel underneath the rear site, forward of the three proof marks. The wood base magazine is also marked "Germany" on the bottom. The seller says that after WWI, a number of these were cleaned up for commercial sale and imported to the U.S., and that this is one of them. Does anyone here know anything about this?

Also, the blue is in nice shape, with just a little worn off around the edges, but it seems to be a somewhat nicer finish than the standard military. The edges themselves looked sharp if memory serves, but it has been over three weeks since I've seen the thing. Would it be safe to assume that they put a little more effort into the finish of the piece for commercial sale? Straw finish is in very nice shape as well, incidentally. The reason I ask is because the piece looks very nice, but I don't know how to tell if someone has refinished it.

Any input would be most appreciated.

Thanks,
Danny

 

[taudelt]

Danny........ The German military would not have put GERMANY on their issue weapons. The comment about being "cleaned up" would indicate to me that perhaps the gun has been refinished. It may very well have been done back in Germany. Then again it may have been done somewhere else. There is an old saying about if it looks too good to be true than usually it isn't. Having said that I will tell you that there is nothing wrong with having a gun with GERMANY stamps on it but know that it normally does not have the same collector value that one without them would have.

 

[Guest]

Thanks for the input Dave. The way the seller put it was that at the end of the war a large number of Artillery models were turned into police pistols by changing the barrel, and a number were left in the artillery configuration, refinished to commercial specs and marked "Germany" for export. He states that the pistol does still have the Army acceptance mark, along with the three German proof marks. I'm not sure of what commercial spec means when it comes to the blueing. Forgot to mention, the gun is a DWM.

Does anyone know how many Luger importers there were in the U.S. back then, or have a general history of these guns? I know that in 1923 Stoeger took out a U.S. patent on the name "Luger", but I don't think that would have prevented other companies from importing them. I guess there's no way to tell who imported the thing.

Danny

 

[sauerfan]

Danny,

you are correct: the Stoeger Inc, NY had and STILL HAS protection for the word LUGER for the goods "Pistols and parts thereof". I searched in the online database of US Patent and Trademark Office and found the following info:


Word Mark LUGER
Goods and Services PISTOLS AND PARTS THEREOF. FIRST USE: 18950201. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 18950201
Serial Number 71290722
Filing Date October 5, 1929
Registration Number 0269834
Registration Date April 22, 1930
Owner (REGISTRANT) A.F. STOEGER, INC. CORPORATION NEW YORK 509 FIFTH AVENUE NEW YORK CITY NEW YORK
(LAST LISTED OWNER) STOEGER, INC. CORPORATION BY CHANGE OF NAME NEW YORK 5 MANSARD COURT WAYNE NEW JERSEY 07470
Renewal 4TH RENEWAL 20010205
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

I shortened it a little bit by deleting the formal parts of the info.

For what purposes the Stoeger Inc did file/register the word LUGER, is not known to me.

Martin

 

[Dwight Gruber]

"For what purposes the Stoeger Inc did file/register the word LUGER, is not known to me."

Marketing.

And I'm sure that by now they have lost the legal protection for the name, as they have made no effort to actively protect it.

--Dwight

 

[taudelt]

Danny...... We have something in common...... I don't know what "commercial spec" means either.... Could just have something to do with "gunshow speak".........My thought would be that perhaps that 1918 Arty was not issued or was in such good shape it didn't need reworking. If the GERMANY stamp is thru the bluing I would tend to think that way. If there is bluing in the stamp I would think it has gotten refinished somewhere along the way......

 

[Guest]

I called Bob Simpson at Simpson LTD for his input, and he also said that it might not have been issued. That would make sense to me, considering the condition of the bore, which is about perfect. The seller definitely says that the finish was upgraded for commercial sale, though. If it's the finish that the exporter did for retail sale in the U.S. back in the '20s, would that be kosher from the collectible standpoint? All the numbers numbers match, too, which is why I'm interested in it. He's asking a reasonable price, and say's I would have 30 days to return it if not satisfied.

Danny

 

[Edward Tinker]

Danny, all depends on what is a reasonable price?

If you can get it for a artillery shooter price, then you can't lose. If it is higher priced, then you are taking a chance...

If it is a Weimar refinish for resale, then there is less collectability than an Imperial, but more than as a shooter.

Other opinions?

Ed

 

[Guest]

He's asking $2,200.00. I assume that is high for a shooter?

 

[keoki7]

Danny, "GERMANY" marked LP08s are somewhat scarce but legit, I have a few. One would expect that the German source of the weapon in the twenties would have put the pistol in top shape if it was needed so it may be refinished, but in the twenties. Simichrome treatment may answer the "when" question for you.

Stoeger was certainly the dominant Luger importer after WWI and they may have been the only importer. There were a number of other US retailers of Lugers at the time.

 

[Guest]

I'm not familiar with Simichrome; what's that?

 

[Heinz]

Simichrome is a high grade metal polish. It is available at good hardware stores. It is a very fine soft abrasive. It will not hurt the blue if used cautiously but will show a brown color from removing a small part of the old oxide. Do not try to remove all of the old oxide. Next time it would fail the test Simichrome is great for cleaning up knives, provided you are not "cleaning up" a collector's piece.

 

[Guest]

So, does $2,200.00 seem fair, if it has either the original finish or was refinished in Germany for commmercial sale in the 20's, the finish being in very good shape, a great bore and matching numbers?

Thanks again for everyones input,
Danny

 

[keoki7]

Danny, if it's not worth $2200 now it probably will be next year if President Bush is reelected. On the other hand, if the liar is elected, all bets are off and I would not be surprised to see a slight increase of available pieces like we did when the Bubba and the Booger woman were in Washington.