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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Erfurt 1917 Artillery 4149 f has the usual strawed parts, all numbers (except holdopen) match including the mag......except the original bbl was cut down and the front sight mount soldered into the new position. The Artillery sight was removed and the detent in the top of the bbl and a "flat" spot remains. The notch in front of the receiver where the sight was is evident. The front and rear sight sections of the toggle were renumbered (on the bottom of each piece is "23" which seems to have been the number overstamped on the top of each piece)with the last two digits of the gun and each has the "RC" proof. There is one more "RC" on the receiver above the first proof mark. The bbl is numbered to the gun and has no millemeter markings. Grips are Imperial marked but have two different numbers on them from this gun. The mag seems to be an aluminum-bottomed 1923 style with a "1" at the top, the serial number of the gun in the middle and an Eagle with a Swastika in a circle in it's claws with a "D" to the right of it. This pistol has the "Schywie Safety". No other marks are on the gun.

I have been told this is a Police Rework and that the mag denotes it as having been issued to a "D" city, perhaps Dusseldorf?

What do you guys think about it being a true "Police Rework"? The mag being Nazi-era but numbered to the gun? The Arsenal Rework stamps? Anything else I can look for? The finish is worn as are the grips, and the straw is worn a bit here and there. I've had it 30 years and have stripped it on several occasions, and have only found that holdopen to be numbered differently (it is "22").

Any thoughts?

If you need pics, I can take a few and send them to someone to post, or...can I post them as an attachment from pics in my computer????.
 

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The "d" on the magazine, well most people agree that it is an inspector and not a city designation.

Since artillerys were deemed illegal, then many were cut down and reused. A lot of imperial guns were then reissued to either the army and many to the police.

Pictures would be very helpful,

Ed
 

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You state that the original pistol was a 1917 Erfurt LP08. I am curious as to why you believe that is so? Erfurt only manufactured these models in 1914 and they are numbered in the ns,a & b suffix range. Perhaps you meant a 1917 DWM LP08?
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
The pistol has the ERFURT Crown Logo, but both sections of the toggle are restamps from previously numbered parts from other pistols. The chamber date is "1917". I checked the receiver/bbl proofs against my other 8" 1914 ERFURT Arty and they are not the same. I checked the well mark on the pistol in question and it has an "N" in a circle...which I think may mean "DWM Artillery", so that might now account for the REAL manufacturer of this weapon. The appearance of the Crown-over-RC stamp on both toggle parts and over the first receiver stamp are easily seen. No, this pistol hasn't been "altered" in the 31 years I have owned it, and the stamps are oxidized and worn into the patina of the finish.

What I think this now is, and if I can resize the photos to under 300 KB so I can post them for you guys, will turn out to be a 1917 DWM Arty with ERFURT toggles restamped to the gun. The BBL has no mm stampings and is numbered to the gun, so everything but the holdopen and the renumbered 1923 metal-bottom mag are numbered the same.

If I can get a pal to tell me how to resize those pics, I can post them, as they are over the 300k maximum.
 

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Chuck, always hard to tell someone how to re-size. You can usually open Microsoft Picture IT and then go to re-size and make it smaller, either by actual size or pixels, or another photo editor on your computer....

But send them to me and let me take a look at them...

ed
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
With Ed's help in resizing, here are a few pics....now, is this an ERFURT frame, with an ERFURT receiver, with an Artillery bbl cut down for Police use? What do you guys think....

Download Attachment: 4149_Bbl_Proof.jpg
127.83KB

Download Attachment: 4149_Odd_Bbl_Proof.jpg
131.92KB

Download Attachment: 4149_Top.jpg
47.23KB

Download Attachment: 4149_Overview.jpg
44.39KB

Download Attachment: 4149_Sear_Safety.jpg
149.16KB

Download Attachment: 4149_Toggle_RC.jpg
127.82KB

Download Attachment: 4149_Mag_Stamps.jpg
107.97KB
 

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Hi Chuck,

In my opinion your pistol is a typical Weimar police example assembled from surplus or canibalised Imperial parts.
Note the E/PT police acceptance on the right side of the barrel.
The E/D stamping on the mag seem to me a bit bogus because this kind of police stamping is unknown, isn't it .

Nevertheless your pistol is full of fascinating history.

Fritz
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thanks Fritz....but I still am not certain if the frame is Erfurt or DWM....is this a 1917 Artillery receiver and bbl? Can you confirm if the bbl is an artillery with the front sight mount removed? Did Erfurt make Artillery models in 1917? Is this an Erfurt 1917 4" military that just "happened" to have a bbl possibly made for DWM put on it post-war? Is the Police "E/PT" mark the one you referred to just above the bbl proof eagle? Was this put together in the 1920's for Weimar Police (I think so) and then possibly in the early 1930's when the Nazi's came into power given the mag it now has and still remained in the Police inventory? Do all Police lugers have Unit marks, since this one sure LOOKS to be a Police, but has no marks???

I'm thinking it was a Weimar Police and then an early '30's Nazi Police...but no unit markings....strange...

I've had it since about 1970 and the guy I got it from had it for about 10 years, so I am not sure if the mag was messed with and the wear and nicks in it show more use than it would have if the stamping was done post war or post importation to the US for purposes of deceiving a buyer....it's got wear on it, and the grips are nicely worn down as well.....a really well-used example....wish I had the holster!

Thanks for help and thanks to anyone who can add more to this by answering these other questions.
 

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Chuck,

The TP/Eagle is a power proof characterisitc of Simson rework in the early 1920s. The TP is commonly interpreted as "Technical Police", although the definitive meaning of this is obscure.

The Receiver is assuredly Erfurt, determined by the Erfurt proof eagle on the right receiver, reinforced by the RC mark above the hardness inspection stamp. It is just as assuredly not an Artillery receiver. Erfurt only manufactured LP-08 in one year, 1914. However, in 1916 an edict was issued that all P-08 receivers were to have the sight relief notch machined into the top front edge. Erfurt complied with this and all Erfurts 1916 and later are found with the notch; DWM still only notched Artillery receivers.

The barrel is an LP-08 barrel, cut down and machined to the standard 4" configuration. You are correct about the flat on top and "detent"--actually holes for the sight base--determining this. This may be an early barrel, the remnants of the hole in the barrel flange top is the relief for the adjustable rear sight screw. (I don't know if this was retained for the non-adjustable sight, perhaps another LP-08 owner can tell us.) As you note the front sight/barrel band was machined off another Luger barrel and soldered into place on this one, if we could see the entire barrel band it would be possible to determine if it came from a standard P-08 or an Artillery barrel--perhaps even this one.

Simson went to an -awful lot- of trouble to manufacture this Luger.

The stick-eagle/D on the magazine is listed in Costanzo as characteristic of issue to Danzig Polezei units (p. 109), but his exmple does not mention a swastika present.

Not enough of the frame is visible to determine if it is DWM or Erfurt. Check all the small parts for crown/Letter stamps, Erfurt inspectors stamped everything. Look particularly on the front of the trigger guard. Also look for other c/RC stamps--DWM almost never has them.

Not all Police Lugers have unit marks.

This is a very interesting Luger, showing its varied history in steel. Thanks very much for the opportunity to see it.

--Dwight
 

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"The stick-eagle/D on the magazine is listed in Costanzo as characteristic of issue to Danzig Polezei units (p. 109), but his exmple does not mention a swastika present."


IMO, this is one of the many errors that will be found in Constanzo's reference.
 

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quote:Originally posted by garfield

"The stick-eagle/D on the magazine is listed in Costanzo as characteristic of issue to Danzig Polezei units (p. 109), but his exmple does not mention a swastika present."


IMO, this is one of the many errors that will be found in Constanzo's reference.
Mentioned as a starter for the discussion, and to note that it is on record. My suspicion is that you are probably right.

Anybody got any better ideas?

--Dwight
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Thank you gentlemen, I now know a LOT more than I did last week about this pistol...here is what I think I've gotten out of this:
1) Erfurt frame 4149 f ..all internals except holdopen are "49" (it is "22" and Crown proofed). Safety lever is strawed and "49". Sear bar safety lever is "49". Mag release is strawed, spring is blued. Trigger strawed and "49". Locking bolt is strawed and "49". Grips have the exact same patina, wear and look, left has Crown proof and "30", the right stamping is too faint.

2) Erfurt Receiver 1917 dated, has all "49" marked parts and Crown proofed. Firing pin "49" & Crown proofed. Breechblock has "49" restamp on side & an Erfurt Eagle, on the right side a Crown proof. Extractor "49". Forward toggle link is Crown/RC, Crown proofed, and restamped "49" behind the big ERFURT and CROWN logo. Rear toggle link is Crown/RC. Sear bar is "49". Sear bar spring blued. Sideplate "49" and has "Y" on the inside. The frame has the "witness mark" the bbl does not. Toggle pin is "49". Ejector is strawed and Crown proofed.

So I think this is assembled from a 1917 4" military by Simson with a spare 1914 Erfurt Arty bbl they renumbered to the frame after putting on a Crown proofed front sight from a 4" bbl (it looks a bit shorter in length than the "fine tune" on my 1914 Erfurt Arty). It has no "mm" stampings and a frame witness but no bbl witness. The bbl has had the Arty rear sight base removed. It has the Sear Safety in place. It has no Mag Safety and no sign it ever did.

So it's telling us it's a 1920's Simson Police Rework someone went to great lengths to put a good barrel on.

Then there is that Eagle/Swastika/D mag with the "1" and the "4149" with the aluminum base....was this pistol still in Police service by the Nazi era and did it receive a new magazine at some time in the post 1933 era that was proofed by Inspector "D" and have the Nazi Eagle/Swastika put on at that time?

If so, this is a Weimar Police pistol with NO police unit markings that became a Nazi Police pistol during WWII. The grips and the used, but not pitted bbl show it got plenty of use before the PO and myself put it to rest for the last 40-odd years.

So it is technically an Artillery-styled frame, built by Erfurt in 1917 (as a 4" military), who stopped making Artys in 1914, that happened to be rebuilt by Simson in the '20s with an actual Erfurt Arty bbl, but cut down for the Treaty and for Police use....sort of an Artillery since everything but removed rear sight base and the swapped out rear toggle and the missing Ramp/Adjustable rear sight make it look like one.....

The one crazy thing is that if this WAS a 4" Military in the first place, it wouldn't have needed the change of the breechblock and both toggles, would it? Since they put back in the "49" marked extractor and firing pin, it seems that the BB and toggles must have come from a pile of used parts since they were restamped? It made more sense to me that this pistol was simply a 1917 Arty with a cut-down bbl and swapped out parts...but if no Artys were made by Erfurt at that time this is a strange one for sure...hey, it was 80 years ago, so who knows!

I'll go with it as a 4" Military-to- '20s Simson Police-to- WWII Nazi Police-to- capture-to-collector.

Those guys at Simson had WAY too much time on their hands and WAY too many parts left over.....even after the Allies in WWI souvenired all the assembled Lugers currently floating around they could get their hands on!

I think that covers it, Much Obliged!
 

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Regarding the SE/D stamp? Some, including myself, feel that this police stamp and others with various letters, were police proof/acceptance stamps assigned to an individual inspector and team, rather than a police property stamp.

I wonder if there has been any data compiled to determine whether there is pattern as to when or on which groups of pistols the various stamps can be found.

Perhaps the Zuegamt in Berlin used more than one inspector and team?
 
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