Chuck, wlecome to the forum. A bit open in the description. Sounds mostly like a pre-ad. Which is fine, but show pictures description, etc. and then if you ARE selling it, a price is required. We're a gun forum, not an auction ;>)



Ed

 

Sorry Ed. Didn't mean to sound like an AD. Just had to jump off unexpectedly to take my Wife to the doctor.

My understanding about the Bergman also referred to as the Menz is that it was made as an attempt to develop a double action pistol. Unfortunately, I lost track of the info I had on it as far as when it was made and thought one of the members might know.

The pistol is marked on the left slide as follows:
Waffenfabpick (I didn't mispell this. It appears to be an engravers mistake) Aug. Menz Suhl
Menz-Spezial-Modell
The left frame is marked with the serial # 3663 the left side of the trigger is marked 63
At the rear of the slide it has the N over something I wouldn't exactly call a crown. This same proff is also marked on the extreme rear of the frame on the left side below the hammer.
The grips (both chipped out at the rear) are marked Special.
There are no distinct markings on the magazine.
The operation was to squeeze the trigger once to cock it and release, second squeeze and fire semi auto after that.
The interior lockwork appears to be quite complicated. Uses wire springs and appears that two are missing.
I'm going to try posting pictures from my computer. If they fail I'll go to photobucket and make a second post. (it takes me forever as I'm on dial up)
To the best of my knowledge none have been seen outside the 3000 range. I saw one in a NRA publication that was marked Bergman instead of Menz and thought the mispelling of Waffenfabrik was unique. Didn't work heading for photobucket.

 

first image

 

2nd image (they won't tell me how to post both photos at the same tim

e)

 

Hello Charlie...

I have been waiting for a long time for someone to post on the Menz PB Spezial pistol. I have one - mine is #357x, so in the three thousands like yours.

The Menz PB Spezial is an extremely, and I emphasize extremely, rare pistol. I have only seen 1 for sale in all my years of collecting, and that pistol was refinished and had the wrong grips. Still, it sold for about $2K.

I will be most interested to read the feedback from other forum members giving you a ballpark value. I would like to know if anyone else has a Menz PB Spezial. I consider the Menz to be the rarest item in my pistol collection.

Cheers,
Gary

 

Gary,
I too am looking forward to some posts.
Mine is anything but pristine and with the missing two springs I wouldn't consider firing it.
I almost threw it away in 1970 thru frustration over trying to make the springs.
I'd like to see what the spring arrangement looks like under the right grip. The lockwork is about as complicated as I have ever seen.
The mispelling of waffenfabrik on my slide got my attention and I said, "Only 1000 made and with waffenfabpik on the slide could this be one of a kind?" ( I learned not to extrapolate on serial numbers when tracking my Walther PPK)
If it's not too much trouble post some pictures or e-mail me.
Thanks

 

Gary,
I looked on the web for the Menz PB and a foreign auction had one that was badly pitted for 2200 Euro @ $1.47 + $3234. It too was in the 3000 serial range. Mine however is not marked PB.

 

Charlie,

the reason, why your Menz PB Spezial does not have the "PB" is simple:

Walther did not like the "PB" and sued Menz for infringement of their denomination "PP". The trial went up to the Reichsgericht (abbreviation RG; a high court comparable to the US Supreme court). In 1938 (or 1939? don't have the decision of the RG here at present) RG decided, that Menz in deed would infringe Walther's trademark rights in the designation "PP" and forbid Menz to use "PB". So, your Menz was made after the court's decision.

As far as Bergmann is concerned: yes, Bergmann took over production of the pistol from Menz. In the 1940 Akah catalog this pistol is already listed as Bergmann.

Regards

Martin

 

Hello...

Strange, that your pistol is not marked PB. Mine is marked "Modell P.B. "Spezial" on the left slide, under "Waffenfabrik Aug. Menz Suhl".

One site I saw, in German, stated "The Menz PB Spezial is, like the Gustloff pistol, one of the rarest and most sought after pistols from this time (1930s), and is missing from just about every collection. Also, has never been offered by Hermann Historica."

Another indication of the rarity of this pistol.

Charlie...actually, this is the wrong forum for this posting. It really belongs under Axis Pistols 1933-1945.

Cheers,
Gary

 

Gary,

quote:Strange, that your pistol is not marked PB.

Please read my post above and you will understand the reason why.

quote:Also, has never been offered by Hermann Historica

Actually, one was auctioned on Hermann Historica:

http://www.hermann-historica.de/auktion/hhm53.pl?f=NR&c=60551&t=temartic_S_D&db=kat53_s.txt

the starting price was 2,200 Euros – it did not sell.

Regards

Martin

 

Sorry for being on the wrong forum. The info all of you provided makes that clear now that the information has been sifted through.
The serial number thing is interesting in the one offered at auction was 3640 marked PB and Gary's if I recall is marked PB with a higher serial number than mine which is 3363 with no PB and with an engravers mistake. Logic would be that the lower number was made first and the PB followed. Whatever. I don't think we'll ever get it nailed down exactly.
Thanks to all for your contributions.
I think I'll hang on this piece and continue searching for the missing spring info to get it working.
In the meantime I have to get the slide off (having a little trouble) and look for any more markings and get it cleaned up and oiled.

 

Gents, notice that the grips are marked with the English word "Special", and not the German "Spezial". I wonder why. I am sure this was done for a reason. Could they actually be thinking about exporting these pistols? To whom?

 

I should think they would always be thinking about exporting arms. The slide is marked "Spezial" while the grips, it is true, are marked "Special". Seems a bit inconsistent...probably no way of knowing for sure.

 

Hello ...

Thought I would put up pictures of my Menz pistol. I know they are terrible pictures -as I go to work in the dark, and come home in the dark, not much possibility of daylight pictures right now.

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This pistol is in perfect working condition. It has a little honest holster wear, but no pitting. Left side of slide is turning brown patina and has more wear than the right side. On the whole, I think it is a better pistol than the Walther PPK. It has a robust, solid feel in the hand, and seems like a pistol that could really take a licking and keep on ticking.

Cheers,
Gary

 

Gary,
We agree on more than we disagree, however the PPK has fewer parts that could fail, is easily field stripped and more compact.
I have a PPK that will be 70 next year and it has taken a licken' and still keeps on tickin'. I think the Walther workmanship is better, but that's just personal opinion.(German made)
Chuck