[Guest]

I would be happy to help anyone with a Model 1914 Navy authenticate it. There are a lot of reproductions of this prized piece floating around so a second set of eyes can be welcome.

All Lugers should have been made with a 6" barrel.

Dan

 

[Jan C Still]

Dan
Thanks for your help.
Jan

 

[Harry]

Dan...I accept your offer and would like you to check out my DWM 1917 dated Navy rig s/n 6038. I bought it 20 years ago. It has a matching numbered magazine. The black holster is maker marked and dated 1917 and has two belt looks. Thank you, Harry Logan

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[Jan C Still]

Harry
As there has not been a response, I will attempt a partial response. Please fill in the blanks that I leave.

According to Brad Simpson significant quantities of 1916 and 1917 dated Navy Lugers were replicated in recent times. The most common donor gun was the 1920 commercial Luger. New 6 inch barrels and a new rear toggle link with Navy sight were added. The original proofs were removed and new Navy proofs were added. According to Brad, these Lugers have been widley distributed

How can these replica 1916 and 1917 dated Navy Lugers be identified?

1. The replicas Navy Lugers look like they are brand new. The original Navy Luger should look like it is older than 85 years.
Rust blue produces a little rust on its surface as it ages. There should be some patina (rust) on the aged Luger. As the wood grips absorb moisture there is usually a little rust under the grips. Take a white cleaning patch with a little WD-40 and rub the area under the grips. There should be a little rust color on the patch (Unless the previous owner has thoroughly cleaned the pistol). Straw parts most often age faster than the rest of the Luger and show tiny black or dark brown aging spots.
2. The replica main axle pin has a small flange. Original 1916 and 1917 dated Navy Lugers have a large flange. (Note: almost all other Lugers have a small flange) However, these replica small flange Navy Lugers can easily be made into large flange Navy Lugers with a little machining.
3. The replica barrel is new and the bore is mint. As I recall the twist and rifling may not be correct. Note: Mint bores are very rare on original Imperial Navy Lugers
4. The replica Navy C/M proofs have the crown slightly floating above the M. The original Navy proofs have the crown tight to the M. See IMPERIAL NAVY LUGERS AND SERIAL NUMBERS for a comparison of original and replica Navy proofs.
5. The replica Navy rear sight is not exactly the same as the original Navy rear sight.
6. On original Navy Lugers the barrel serial number digits will most often have a halo around them.
I am sure that the Navy Luger experts know of additional ways to detect these replica 1916 and 1917 dated Navy Lugers.
Jan

 

[Guest]

Hi Harry:

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you. I am going to need some additional photos to really do your Navy justice. You can post them here or send them to me directly and then I will post my comments here.

Based on the photos you posted, the side-plate looks to be a different color of blue than the rest of the gun. The color of blue is a little darker blue than found on originals. A lot of collectors come unglued to find out their gun has had a new paint job along the way but I'm of the opinion that very few Lugers have their original blue. These different colored blues are often clues to new parts like barrels that have been replaced over the years.

Would you mind sending or posting a close-up picture of the receiver and barrel including the number on the barrel? I also need to see a shot of the underside of the toggle with the arm on the left and the right. I would also like to see a close-up of the top of the toggle with the 100 showing. I would also like to see a picture looking down the barrel from the front.

More proof that the gun has been blued is that they used two colors to paint white and yellow in the numbers and safety. It's not a big deal but rarely do you find much paint that can last 86 years without some discoloration or vanishing altogether.

My email address is [email protected].

Glad to be of help.

Dan

 

[Guest]

Hi Harry:

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you. I am going to need some additional photos to really do your Navy justice. You can post them here or send them to me directly and then I will post my comments here.

Based on the photos you posted, the side-plate looks to be a different color of blue than the rest of the gun. The color of blue is a little darker blue than found on originals. A lot of collectors come unglued to find out their gun has had a new paint job along the way but I'm of the opinion that very few Lugers have their original blue. These different colored blues are often clues to new parts like barrels that have been replaced over the years.

Would you mind sending or posting a close-up picture of the receiver and barrel including the number on the barrel? I also need to see a shot of the underside of the toggle with the arm on the left and the right. I would also like to see a close-up of the top of the toggle with the 100 showing. I would also like to see a picture looking down the barrel from the front.

More proof that the gun has been blued is that they used two colors to paint white and yellow in the numbers and safety. It's not a big deal but rarely do you find much paint that can last 86 years without some discoloration or vanishing altogether.

My email address is [email protected].

Glad to be of help.

Dan

 

[garfield]

quote:Originally posted by Dan Clemons
..... but I'm of the opinion that very few Lugers have their original blue.....

Dan

This observation needs claification. Without such, the most charitable comment that can be made in its regard is that it is misleading and imprecise.

 

[garfield]

quote:Originally posted by Dan Clemons
..... but I'm of the opinion that very few Lugers have their original blue.....

Dan

This observation needs claification. Without such, the most charitable comment that can be made in its regard is that it is misleading and imprecise.

 

[Jan C Still]

Dan stated:
“It's not a big deal but rarely do you find much paint that can last 86 years without some discoloration or vani More proof that the gun has been blued is that they used two colors to paint white and yellow in the numbers and safety. shing altogether.”

DWM did white laquer the safety marking. However neither DWM nor the German military painted in the numbers. This is done by collectors and photographers to help see the markings in photographs.

I have been collecting Lugers for 30+ years and I find it difficult to judge if a Luger has been reblued from photographs alone. Lighting will often determine if a part (particularly the side plate)is a different color.

Dan said “I'm of the opinion that very few Lugers have their original blue. “ I agree with Garfield, you are wrong.

If you are going to judge a fellow collectors Luger, with such definite statements please let everyone know how long you have been collecting and what qualifies you to determine if a Luger is boosted or a replica. This is a serious matter.
Jan C. Still

 

[Jan C Still]

Dan stated:
“It's not a big deal but rarely do you find much paint that can last 86 years without some discoloration or vani More proof that the gun has been blued is that they used two colors to paint white and yellow in the numbers and safety. shing altogether.”

DWM did white laquer the safety marking. However neither DWM nor the German military painted in the numbers. This is done by collectors and photographers to help see the markings in photographs.

I have been collecting Lugers for 30+ years and I find it difficult to judge if a Luger has been reblued from photographs alone. Lighting will often determine if a part (particularly the side plate)is a different color.

Dan said “I'm of the opinion that very few Lugers have their original blue. “ I agree with Garfield, you are wrong.

If you are going to judge a fellow collectors Luger, with such definite statements please let everyone know how long you have been collecting and what qualifies you to determine if a Luger is boosted or a replica. This is a serious matter.
Jan C. Still

 

[Guest]

I'm sorry Harry, according to Jan Still, I do not qualify to render an opinion on this BB.

I will not re-visit nor post here.

Good luck to all of you.

Dan

 

[Guest]

I'm sorry Harry, according to Jan Still, I do not qualify to render an opinion on this BB.

I will not re-visit nor post here.

Good luck to all of you.

Dan

 

[Jan C Still]

Dan
There were sufficient mistakes in your first attempt to make a determination about Harry’s Luger that I thought that you had better qualify yourself. It is not just you and Harry involved but everybody that reads your post and the credibility of this forum. Sorry if my request offended you but getting the facts correct ( in such a serious matter) is sometimes more important than one persons feelings. No one is preventing you from rendering an opinion, but it would be considerate of the members of this forum if you qualified your answer.
Jan

 

[Jan C Still]

Dan
There were sufficient mistakes in your first attempt to make a determination about Harry’s Luger that I thought that you had better qualify yourself. It is not just you and Harry involved but everybody that reads your post and the credibility of this forum. Sorry if my request offended you but getting the facts correct ( in such a serious matter) is sometimes more important than one persons feelings. No one is preventing you from rendering an opinion, but it would be considerate of the members of this forum if you qualified your answer.
Jan

 

[Navy]

All,

I would opine that the notion that it is possible to authenticate a Luger, particularly one of the Navy variants on the basis of photographs alone</u> bears some serious scrutiny, regardless of the experience level of the examiner.

The quality of the boosting I have encountered over the past several years was sufficiently high such that detailed disassembly and examination under magnification was required to positively verify originality. In fact, I do this as a routine procedure with each new acquisition. In several cases I have encountered, I sought second opinions from others, not wishing to trust my eyes exclusively as final authority.

This is not to say that some fakery cannot be spotted via photographic examination, but such fakery must be generally pretty crude, in my experience.

My two cents.
Tom A

 

[Navy]

All,

I would opine that the notion that it is possible to authenticate a Luger, particularly one of the Navy variants on the basis of photographs alone</u> bears some serious scrutiny, regardless of the experience level of the examiner.

The quality of the boosting I have encountered over the past several years was sufficiently high such that detailed disassembly and examination under magnification was required to positively verify originality. In fact, I do this as a routine procedure with each new acquisition. In several cases I have encountered, I sought second opinions from others, not wishing to trust my eyes exclusively as final authority.

This is not to say that some fakery cannot be spotted via photographic examination, but such fakery must be generally pretty crude, in my experience.

My two cents.
Tom A

 

[Harry]

Dear Jan...Thanks for the 1914 Navy Luger information. Mine has the wide toggle pin flange and rust on a white cloth with WD-40 rubbed under the grips. (the grips are numbered to the gun). I have owned it for the past 20 years, so hopefully it hasn't been played with. And it looks old. I am now in San Diego seeing my first grandchild.. ..little Logan (my last name) born Nov 1...all he does is eat, sleep, poop and cry...but he sure is cute....I can post more photos as Dan requested when I return. Harry

 

[Harry]

Dear Jan...Thanks for the 1914 Navy Luger information. Mine has the wide toggle pin flange and rust on a white cloth with WD-40 rubbed under the grips. (the grips are numbered to the gun). I have owned it for the past 20 years, so hopefully it hasn't been played with. And it looks old. I am now in San Diego seeing my first grandchild.. ..little Logan (my last name) born Nov 1...all he does is eat, sleep, poop and cry...but he sure is cute....I can post more photos as Dan requested when I return. Harry

 

[Jan C Still]

Harry
Grand children are neat, my grandson is 16 and still sort of neat! They do put what we do here in perspective.

Thanks for the information on your 1917 Navy. I am not a Navy expert but have some observations. (TomA made an excellent comment above concerning the limits of photographs in determining if a Navy is original.)

1. You purchased it 20 years ago. This is prior to the more recent large scale replicating of 1916 and 1917 dated Navies.
2. It has the large flange main axle pin. Most of the fakes were fabricated from 1920 commercials and had the standard small flange main axle pin.
3. In your 4th photograph down, a halo can be seen around the barrel serial number digits. Also, there is corrosion under the grips. These are indication that the finish is original. Your Navy might look old but it is a beautiful specimen.
4. The current fake Navies have the crown floating above the M. As near as I can tell from your photographs the Navy proofs crowns are not floating above the M.

5. Based on the Rear sight/rear toggle information supplied by Dwight and Ron the rear sight/toggle on Harrys Luger is is original. (Added 11/11/03)


Harry, the limited information and photographs that you supplied (1-5 above) indicates that your 1917 Navy is correct and original.

Harry said “I can post more photos as Dan requested when I return.” Please do. If Dan is still with us he might comment on them.

I have only observed one fake 1917 Navy and that was briefly. I am not knowledgeable about the new manufactured navy sights or barrels used on the replicas. I would like to see some detailed photographs of these fake sights and barrels so they can be compared to correct sights and barrels. If anyone has access to one of the replica Navies please post some detailed photographs.
Thanks
Jan

 

[Jan C Still]

Harry
Grand children are neat, my grandson is 16 and still sort of neat! They do put what we do here in perspective.

Thanks for the information on your 1917 Navy. I am not a Navy expert but have some observations. (TomA made an excellent comment above concerning the limits of photographs in determining if a Navy is original.)

1. You purchased it 20 years ago. This is prior to the more recent large scale replicating of 1916 and 1917 dated Navies.
2. It has the large flange main axle pin. Most of the fakes were fabricated from 1920 commercials and had the standard small flange main axle pin.
3. In your 4th photograph down, a halo can be seen around the barrel serial number digits. Also, there is corrosion under the grips. These are indication that the finish is original. Your Navy might look old but it is a beautiful specimen.
4. The current fake Navies have the crown floating above the M. As near as I can tell from your photographs the Navy proofs crowns are not floating above the M.

5. Based on the Rear sight/rear toggle information supplied by Dwight and Ron the rear sight/toggle on Harrys Luger is is original. (Added 11/11/03)


Harry, the limited information and photographs that you supplied (1-5 above) indicates that your 1917 Navy is correct and original.

Harry said “I can post more photos as Dan requested when I return.” Please do. If Dan is still with us he might comment on them.

I have only observed one fake 1917 Navy and that was briefly. I am not knowledgeable about the new manufactured navy sights or barrels used on the replicas. I would like to see some detailed photographs of these fake sights and barrels so they can be compared to correct sights and barrels. If anyone has access to one of the replica Navies please post some detailed photographs.
Thanks
Jan