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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have a Beretta 1935 with the 4ut stamping that I received in a gun trade recently it is has around 75% finish and is in excellent mechanical condition and has no import markings, my question is should I use this pistol as a carry piece/shooter or is it something to be stored as a collectable? any help would be appreciated as I know nearly nothing about ww2 Berettas. Thanks
 

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Hi Bill, welcome to the Forum. While a 1935 Beretta 4/UT is certainly a collectable, your pistol at 75% is right on the edge.

I would use it as a shooter, but not a carry. You can do a whole lot better for a carry, as far as caliber is concerned.

Many will debate the proper caliber for a carry pistol, but I would like something with greater stopping power than a 7.65 mm (32ACP).

Have fun with your new pistol!!
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks for your help Frank, It would be a shame to stick this pistol in grease and hide it away as it is an AWSOME shooter and pretty darn accurate for such a small piece, Am I correct in assuming the 4ut marking means it was issued to the Germans? also their is another marking on the frame that looks like a stickman with a tail in a circle with a crown over it any ideas what this could be? Thanks again for any help. BP
 

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Sandmountainslim,

Hello, I think that the 4UT is an RSI pistol, meaning that it was issued after General Kurt Student's Fallshirmjager and SS Standartenführer Skorzeny rescued Benito Mussolini on Sept. 12, 1943. Thereafter Mussolini was installed as the puppet head of state of the Salo government in northern Italy from Sept. 23, 1943, to April 25, 1945.

4/UT: Quarto Ufficio tecnico di Controllo Armi e Munizioni, the 4th Technical Control Unit., German Acceptance Quality Control, Pistols delivered to Comando Germaico, German Army Headquarters in Italy in calibers 9 mm short, and 7.65 mm.

The M1934 and M1935 are very sturdy and reliable pistols, and a little bit heavier made than most .32 cals. At 70% finish, I agree with Frank, it's not really in the collectible range of finish, but it is certainly fit to be a shooter, or a carry, if you are OK with the calibre. Personally, I think a .32 is a good carry pistol, though many prefer the .380.

Pancho

A link to mine: http://www.panchogun.com/FVWebPhotos/FV-Beretta-4UT-5x100px.jpg
 

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quote:Originally posted by Pancho



4/UT: Quarto Ufficio tecnico di Controllo Armi e Munizioni, the 4th Technical Control Unit., German Acceptance Quality Control, Pistols delivered to Comando Germaico, German Army Headquarters in Italy in calibers 9 mm short, and 7.65 mm.
Pancho:

Not certain what you are implying. This is not a German acceptance stamp, it is Italian. Many 4/UT marked went to the German miltary, however, not all. To be certain one needs to check the Beretta records.
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Gentlemen, the serial number on my pistol is 5353** if that helps in any way. BP
 

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sms;

According to Whittington, your pistol falls within the SN range of Berettas that were sold to the German Army Headquarters in Italy and the Japanese Army between June 1944 and August 1944. Whittington states that those pistols sold to the Germans can be identified by the circle/4UT stamp. I have never seen a M1935 Beretta that can be positively identified as having been issued by the Japanese Army so cannot attest to the fact that one such pistol in this serial # range would lack the 4UT stamp.

One observation, no doubt you have seen posts where people fail to post the full serial # of their particular pistol. This practice serves no particular purpose other than to deprive those collectors who research and provide the rest of us lazy slugs with the information that we need to be properly informed.
 

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Hello Garfield,
Good to hear from you. No implication in my posting, a clear declarative phrase, "4UT is identified as a German acceptance quality control" (Axis Pisols, p.107).
I'm not certain what you mean by German acceptance stamp, since that general term could include pre and post war nitro proofs, Heereeswaffenamt, Kriegsmarine, etc. markings, but I am guessing that you might mean a waffenamt marking, ie. E/WaA162. I have never heard the 4UT described as a waffenamt mark. Here is an example of the E/WaA162: http://www.panchogun.com/FVWebPhotos/FV-Beretta-WaA162-5x100px.jpg

Hello Sandmountainslim,
The Beretta factory has identified M1935 Ser.# 554907 with a 4UT marking as belonging to a lot delivered to the Grman Army headquarters in Italy on Oct. 16, 1944 (Axis Pistols, P.107). Since the RSI existed from Sept. 23, 1943, to April 25, 1945, and Ser.# 554907 was delivered between those two dates, then that is an RSI pistol. It is likely that if your pistol is close enough to this serial number, then it too was an RSI pistol. Additionally, it is likely that all 4UT pistol were used by the Heer.
 

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quote:Originally posted by Pancho

Hello Garfield,
No implication in my posting, a clear declarative phrase, "4UT is identified as a German acceptance quality control" (Axis Pisols, p.107).
Hello, Pancho:

Sorry, however, I do not believe that the above is a "clear declarative phrase". What is a "German acceptance quality control",
pray tell?

No, I was not referring to a "waffenampt", either pre, post, kreigsmarine, heer or postschutz. Apparently, I did not make myself clear, I stated that the the 4UT stamp is Italian, not German, although it is associated with Beretta pistols that were sold under contact to the German military. It is a "quality control" stamp that was applied, as I understand it, by an Italian inspection and testing unit

I was wrong regarding the contract delivery date for Slims pistol; according to Whittington's records it was included in a delivery of 65,000 Beretta M1934/35 pistols delivered to the German Army Headquarters in Italy between Aug 1944 and Feb, 1945. Those serial # were 534000/599000.

Pancho, how did you reach the conclusion that all 4UT Beretta 34/35s were purchased by the German Military? I do not believe that it has been conclusively establised that the contract sales to the Japanese and S.R.I during this period, although small, did not have the 4UT stamp applied.
 

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Hello Garfield,
Re. imply versus declare
I didn't expect to disuss the english language. I can't enter into a lengthy discourse re. your idiosyncratic definition of the word "imply". I don't know what your definition is, but mine is the same as can be found in Webster's, Random house, and the Oxford dictionary--"to indicate or suggest, without express statement, as something to be inferred". The statement, "4UT is identified as a German acceptance quality control" is a declarative statement--"to make known in explicit or formal terms". That one does not agree with the statement, or that that one does not understand it, is another matter. Your disagreement does not change the form of a declarative statement into an implication. This is basic 6th grade grammar which I learned when Sister Lucretia taught my class to diagram our sentences about 45 years ago. I recall that she reinforced these lessons by pulling on my ear until it seemed that my feet left the ground. Yet, I remain incapable of explaining the derivation of these terms, imply and declare. I can't tell you why they mean what they mean, and must admit that I concede such issues to the likes of Noah Webster and other lexicographers.

Re. 4UT
You asked me how I reached the conclusion that ALL 4UT pistols were purchased by the German Military. Firstly, I need to clarify that I did not say that. I said, "it is LIKELY that all 4UT pistols were USED by the Heer". Words have meaning, and for a few decades, I have been very careful in my use of language. I believe these words were used deliberately by the originator of the statement. The word "likely" (seemingly true or certain; probable) and "USED"--not the word "purchased". "Likely" is an important word in this statement. I don't know if all 4UT Berettas went to the German Army, but I do know the following.

1. Jan C. Still, in Axis Pistols, page 107, states,
"It is likely that almost all of the 4/UT, ...were used by the German Army". He also includes two other variations in this statement, "1944 dated and blank slide Model 1935".

2. Ugo Menchini, in Pietro Beretta Le Automatiche, page 326, states,
"After the 8 September 1943 armistice between Italy and the Allies, the Germans saddled Beretta with three engineers from Germany. Moreover the factory was garrisoned by the SS... Weapons of that time, even the ones produced for the Germans, bore the punch mark 4UT (Quarto Ufficio tecnico di Controllo Armi e Munizioni--4th Technnical Control Unit), impressed prior to d[e]spatch to purchasers."

3. Ugo Menchini, in Pietro Beretta Le Automatiche, regarding an M1934, page 255, states,
"In late 1940 there appears an oval including the punch mark IVU. It refers to the 4th technical Control Unit of the ***, where inspection was carried out."

4. Note that, while they seem to represent the same inspectors, the "IVU" is not the same mark as the "4UT". The IVU would be found on the pre RSI model M1934, and the 4UT would be found on the RSI model M1935.

These are the reasons why I believe that it is likely that all of the 4UT Berettas were RSI pistols. I believe that I am in agreement with both Still and Menchini.
 

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Garfield,
Your response is nonsensical. Have you not been reading these posting?
Are you actually incapable of giving meaning to "German acceptance quality control"? I don't believe it. I've provided you with the benefit of my secondary research, and cited my primary sources, Still and Menchini. This takes time. I don't just have this info in my head. I have to look it up and put it together so that I can give it to you, and then you respond as though you have not read my postings. I am beginning to believe that you are not really interested in the 4UT Beretta, and that your issue is not related to the discussion of pistols. I am just a pistol collector, and I like to talk about WW2 pistols. It is a field of historical study which I respect and in which I have a genuine interest. I have no formal training in the dark arts of psychiatry, so, my assumption was that your motivation was the same as mine--WW2 pistols. Simply, I am talking about pistols, and you seem to be doing something else. Nevertheless, you have taught me a lesson. I know better now. I regret that I did not figure this out sooner. Makes me feel foolish for trying to help you. Oh well, such is life.
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Gentlemen,
Thank you for all the help you have given me concerning my Beretta. My apologies for any disagreements my questions have caused.
SMS
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
This month marks two years for me carrying the Beretta '35, I must admit I have never owned a sturdier and more reliable pistol, and that goes for Walthers, Colts and everything else I have owned.
 
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