[Frank]

The purpose of this post is to show some of my Luger Grips made from Bakelite and Plastic. I will only show those with holes on the back side which may be original, or not and to show the differences.

This post is also provided, separate from Tom's (tomathvl) Section so it won't cause any more clutter than is already there. Also, it may provide Dave (taudelt) with some more information regarding his grips.

All the photos were produced with a scanner and balanced to show the desired detail.

TYPE 1
The first set of photos show what I feel is an original set. I will call this set TYPE 1.
Front View
Note the thin even border around each grip panel.



Download Attachment: b Type 1 Grips Front.jpg
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Back View
Note the holes are threaded to accept the grip screws. The right grip hole is high, the left grip hole is low.



Download Attachment: b Type 1 Grips.jpg
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Left Grip Threaded Hole and adjacent pad.
Note the mold marks on the pad and the lack of air holes in the material.



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Left Grip Safety Lever Area
Note the thick section above the circular cutout and the thin web that extends to the right of the thicker section.



Download Attachment: a Type 1 Grips L SL Detail.jpg
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Right Grip Threaded Hole
Again the lack of air holes.



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TYPE 2
The second set of photos show what I feel is another original set. I will call this set TYPE 2.

Since the front view and safety lever area are similar to the TYPE 1 Grips, they won't be duplicated here.

Rear View
Note the holes are threaded to accept the grip screw. Both of these threaded holes are located low on the grip panels.

Download Attachment: b Type 2 Grips.jpg
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Left Grip Threaded Hole and adjacent pad.
Again note the mold marks on the pad and the lack of air holes in the material.



Download Attachment: a Type 2 Grips L Detail.jpg
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Right Grip Threaded Hole
Again the lack of air holes.



Download Attachment: a Type 2 Grips R Detail.jpg
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TYPE 3
The third set of photos show what I feel may be original set, but the jury is still out. I will call this set TYPE 3.

Since the front view is similar to the TYPE 1 Grips, they won't be duplicated here.

Back View
Note the holes are NOT threaded to accept the grip screws. The right grip hole is high, the left grip hole is low.



Download Attachment: b Type 3 Grips.jpg
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Left Grip Non-Threaded Hole and adjacent pad.
Note the mold marks on the pad and the lack of air holes in the material.



Download Attachment: a Type 3 Grips L Detail.jpg
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Left Grip Safety Lever Area
Note the thick section above the circular cutout is standing out and the thin web that should extend to the right of the thicker section is missing. Examining that web shows it's been chipped away so drawing any conclusions might be a mistake.



Download Attachment: a Type 3 Grips L SL Detail.jpg
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Right Grip Non-Threaded Hole
Again the lack of air holes.



Download Attachment: a Type 3 Grips R Detail.jpg
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Now for some Non-Original Grips ("Fakes")

TYPE F4

Front View
Note the thick uneven border around each grip panel in contrast to the Type 1 Grips.



Download Attachment: b Type 4 Grips Front.jpg
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Back View
Note the holes are NOT threaded to accept the grip screws and are very large. Both holes are located in the lower section of the grip panel.


Download Attachment: b Type 4 Grips.jpg
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Left Grip Non-Threaded Hole and adjacent pad.
Note the mold marks on the pad and the difference between this grip and the Type 1 grip. Also note the difference in surface texture in this set of grips.



Download Attachment: a Type 4 Grips L Detail.jpg
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Left Grip Safety Lever Area
Note the thick section above the circular cutout is standing out and the thin web that should extend to the right of the thicker section is missing. In this case the web was never there.



Download Attachment: a Type 4 Grips L SL Detail.jpg
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Right Grip Non-Threaded Hole and adjacent area.



Download Attachment: a Type 4 Grips R Detail.jpg
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TYPE F5
This type is a carbon copy of Type F4, with the exception of the additional pad on the right grip panel

Back View
Note the holes are NOT threaded to accept the grip screws and are very large. Both holes are located in the lower section of the grip panel. Also note the additional right grip pad in the lower section.



Download Attachment: b Type 5 Grips.jpg
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Right Non-Threaded Hole Detail
This photo shows the additional pad in more detail.



Download Attachment: a Type 5 Grips R Detail.jpg
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TYPE F6
This set of grips is a quite remarkable duplication of the Type 2 Grips. Several major differences exist, the most notable is the material. This set is plastic, rather than Bakelite. The tone is drastically different when the grip panel is tapped with a rod type object.

Front View
Looks good!



Download Attachment: b Type 6 Grips Front.jpg
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Rear View
Here the differences show up. The holes are Non-Threaded.



Download Attachment: b Type 6 Grips.jpg
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Left Grip Non-Threaded Hole and adjacent pad.
Note the lack of mold marks on the pad. Also note number and size of air holes in the material. Also note the marking "L8".



Download Attachment: a Type 6 Grips L Detail.jpg
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Left Grip Safety Lever Area
Note the is no defined thick section above the circular cutout. The thickness across the top section is constant.



Download Attachment: a Type 6 Grips L SL Detail.jpg
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Right Grip Non-Threaded Hole and adjacent area showing the air holes and the marking "L8".



Download Attachment: a Type 6 Grips R Detail.jpg
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Other than the VOPO Grips, Vertically Grooved Soviet Grips and the other after-market grips without holes in the rear surface, I don't have any other examples. If there are some more different examples out there, I would like photos similar to those shown.

I know it's not scientific, but perhaps informative!!

 

[tomathvl]

Frank,
The last grips(F6) have an L8 on the back. Just to add some more intrique, L8 is a code listed in a post by Sauerfan showing the maker codes.

http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4085

L8 H. Bodenmüller, Ing.,Stuttgart-Zuffenhausen

The only grips, that I'm aware of, that can be verified to date by markings are the brown Krieghoff's and maybe these? Are you certain they are thermoplastic? Will they bend in hot water or will a hot pin penetrate the surface? I've talked with several old time dealers and the opinions vary and conflict. One dealer said, a well respected dealer I might add, that any grips with fibers were Repros, another said any air holes or bubbles were Repros, on and on. One of the dealers told me to try the hot pin trick that is the same approach for testing Ivory to see if it's real. From what Patrick has found out in his conversations, I'm pretty much open to any thing being used during the war effort at different times depending on what was available and who the maker was. I'm pretty much in Patrick's corner that with all the discussion we're back where we started. I think that you should do some testing of the L8 marked grips without doing any harm to see if they're actually plastic. It maybe a coincidence that the L8 on the back is a maker code or maybe someone is smart enough to include the code on a Repro. Who knows?? Maybe "The Shadow Knows"
Tom

 

[sauerfan]

Tom,

yes, L8 is lited as a maker's code. But remember, the maker's code must be arranged within the MD hallmark.



Download Attachment: MD.JPG
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Feld für Firmenkennzeichen =
field (space) for the company’s code

Feld für Typzeichen =
Field (space) for the material code


I haven't seen any plastic (bakelite) part, where the maker's code has been used without the MD/material code.

Maybe the L8 is just a "clever" attempt of the producer to trick some people.

Martin

 

[taudelt]

Frank...... Thanks for the pictures. I think we are in agreement on your Type 1 and Type 2. In an attempt to compare apples to apples I took more pictures of the other 2 variations that I feel are correct and are also including pictutes of my "Type 2". 42 BYF 4243h

41 BYF 9154P rig:

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42 BYF 4243h

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Download Attachment: MVC-138S.JPG
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42 Banner Commercial


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Download Attachment: MVC-142S.JPG
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Note the size and length of the protrusion on the R/H side of the R/H grips. All three are different.

All three are clearly treaded although the L/H side of the first one appears "torn". I'm still liking mine and think that perhaps they are different from the ones you are not sure of.

Sure would be nice if some other guys joined in the discussion.

 

[Frank]

Dave, I went back and reviewed your March 3 posting too. I don't think I have any problem with the byf 42 grips, my Type 2 Classification.

The byf 41 grips have the threaded holes of both grip panels located high. I have not seen this arrangement on any original grips. That doesn't mean they are not correct, just that I haven't seen them before. They have the proper mold marks on the rear pads of the left panel. I would feel more certain if the threaded holes were the same size as the grip screws (at least the one that isn't damaged). These could be original, but maybe not!

What is the quality of the front of the Banner Grips compared to my Type 1 and Type F4? They look a lot like my F4 and F5 examples but with a different hole placement. When I said Non-Threaded, they look threaded, but they are more ringed than threaded. Are the left rear pads mold marked? Are the threaded holes much too large? The area above the safety lever looks similar to my TypeF4. I really can't make a guess on these, but they don't look right???

 

[Luke]

Excellent presentation, Frank.

I note that in your "Type 6" the circular machine marks still appear but seem to be barely visible. I think we would all agree that these grips are not authentic. One might suspect that they were formed in a mold which was created from authentic "Type 2" grips, the new mold picking up some of the machine marks from the original grips.

Luke

 

[taudelt]

Frank..... The holes on the 41 byf are too small...... just like the 7 sets of HK grips I have.

The front of the Banner grips are just like your Type 1. The left rear pads are mold marked. The grip screws kind of drop inside the holes. I would say they are just a tad larger than the OD of the screws.

I don't know that I follow or understand "ringed". If they were not threaded how would you ever get them off without tearing them up???

 

[Guest_V]

Dave, apparently the mould had small tabs (or stubs) with jagged (or threaded) edges to retain the grip in the mould while the top mould was removed. Removing the grip from the lower mould ripped the jagged edged off. If threaded, the retaining screws were screwed out. enabling the grip to be removed. The screw thread is quite common and it is hardly a coincidence that the grip screw fits.

The L8 would very likely indicate a grip made late in the war. The manufacturer is no longer listed in the `phone directory. Small workshops would not have been members of the MD auditing system.

There really is no known method of proving authenticity.

 

[Frank]

Tom, I think Martin cleared up the "L8" grips. I'll try the hot water test and report the results.

Luke, Thanks

Martin (sauerfan) & Patrick, thanks for the comments. Type F6 is definately not original, in my experience!

Dave, I guess we'll just have to take some guesses about your grips. I know you feel they are legit and so be it!! The rings I eluded to are just that, like equal sized rings stacked one on top of another. They have the initial appearance of being threaded, but are only two or three rings deep and are not threaded.

I agree, it would be nice to get some other comments!!

 

[Guest_V]

Luke,

after researching the matter in some depth, I´d be more than interested in understanding your criteria for stating authenticity. Or is it just a "gut feeling"?

 

[tomathvl]

Martin,Luke, Dave, Patrick, et al,
I understand how the relationship between the L8 and the MD Hallmark was set up originally. From examples I've seen, the brown Krieghoff grips are the only grips that have the MD hallmark properly applied. I'm not aware of any black grips that have the MD Hallmark. For some reason(s) that remains unknown the MD was never applied to any black grips. WAG is that the quality level required for electrical insulation products, and similiar products which required MD stamping, was not required on something such as grips. So why are the brown Krieghoff grips marked? WAG is that they were the first grips made and the quality level was required to be high and in accordance with all the requirements. They were being made for Krieghoff and Krieghoff expected the best. Regardless of the reasons which we may never know, since the L8 is a maker code I wondered if it could be possible that the maker stamped their code on the grips minus the MD Hallmark. It's odd that we have a legimate maker code on a grip. There was another set of black grips that just sold on eBay that were advertised to come off a Krieghoff and they were marked with an L8. I wanted to buy them but being unsure if they were legit I didn't want to spend a large sum of money to investigate their authenticity. If they were real, they were a good deal.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=6517959695&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT
Tom

 

[Guest_V]

Tom,

that´s about how I see things. the black grips came out later. Wartime production brought in a number of small workshops that didn´t conform to earlier quality controls. Goertz distinguishes THREE types of Krieghoff synthetic grips: (1) 1936 brown with fine checkering (2) 1936-1939 brown with course checkering and (3) 1940-1945 black with course checkering, similar to Mauser-08. Only the first variation has the MD mark.

 

[taudelt]

Tom... I was watching those grips on ebay as well. I had emailed him and asked him for some close up shots and never heard back so that kind of sent up the red flags. The pictures he posted left me with the impression that they were not originals. I think the end result was that somebody paid way too much for a pair of repops..

Patrick.... I am in agreement with your thoughts in your last two posts and the findings of Goentz on the HK grips. I have one "Ritzman". 6 brown coarse and one black that all have 4 holes on the back that are too small for the grip screws. That limited sample would make me think they all came from the same maker.

Good discussion.........

 

[Chuck Lutz]

I checked with a machinist friend who is in the final stages of making from scratch, a complete 37mm Anti Tank gun in his garage. I've seen other examples he has created so his opinion is highly respected by me and others....the 37mm fools anyone...they think it's a mixture of original parts...

Anyway, on the "tool marks" on the pads....I asked if there would be some heavy ones and some light ones, with an eye to the suppostion that the grips with LIGHT marks were made from molds of "real" grips and that's why the marks were light....

He said:
"Chuck, I find I always have circular tool marks during machining steel, your feed and the speed of the cutter determine how pronounced the circular tool marks are. To remove the tool marks it always takes another operation to eliminate them, such as fly cutting or grinding which takes a high speed and slower feed. In production work they always try to do the least ammount of operations, always the same feed and speed, so the only thing you notice is what you mentioned, "a dull cutter vs a sharp cutter" as far as different looking marks or more pronounced. In production you would always find some tool marks."

So how much importance you want to place on distinct or fainter tool marks on the pads? If the process to make the molds determines the final look in the mold, is an across the board assumption of faint vs heavy tool marks that important? There might be an argument for NO tool marks, I believe, but faint vs more pronounced?

How about a thread showing the ones that ARE fake, the ebaits and KNOWN fakes, since no one can really agree on what is REAL it seems? I'd say that if grips are for sale for $10-$20 that they are probably post war mfg. right? That would help the new guys from being taken by the guy who BUYS them, then advertises them for sale at $150.00....an unscrupulous seller might do that, d'ya think?

Thanks to Patrick for stating the obvious...mine don't look to be anymore "real" or "fake" than anyone elses' at this point....they have NO inspectors marks, BIG threaded holes, NO fibers, show tool marks on the pads, have been here 29 years with me and show wear on them.

Are they real? Well, I don't know, and it seems nobody else does either....

I hope more info can come to light on the topic, but it seems we have no place to go with this...as Patrick stated, many shops could have produced this type of product so variations would tend to exist among WWII production.

 

[Guest_V]

Herr Witt, mould maker for Römmler, told me that the final details were "scraped" by hand. This would leave individually identifyable marks on the inside of the grip. Higher quality moulds are polished and don´t have these scrape marks. As there were only a limited number of manufacturers, it should be possible to compare similar type grips - according to the placement, size and shape of the anchor holes, machine marks etc.

But even then, you wouldn´t know when or where the grips were made - only that they were made on the same mould.

BTW - after talking to the National German Plastics Museum, I think it can be taken that there was no Ritzmann company. They couldn´t find any reference to that company either.

If points were to be awarded for authenticity, original MD coded Römmler/Krieghoff grips would have tro come out tops, probably followed by L & number coded black grips (even if the quality is defficient), if the L & number are listed.

The other better quality grips are most likely also genuine.

Just to show the nature of the problem, before I left Römmler´s factory, his production manager offered to make exact replicas of the originals - and guaranteed that no one (not even he himself) would be able to tell the difference.

 

[taudelt]

One more for the list. 41 BYF #1388w. R/H high L/H low. That makes 5 like that on my little scorecard.

 

[Frank]

Dave, S/N 1388w Grips; Are the holes threaded and will a grip screw fit the holes?

 

[taudelt]

Frank... They are treaded but I no longer have this gun in my bunker. They guy who bought it does check this board and I'm sure he will check and see if the screws fit. My guess is that they will....

 

[taudelt]

Frank....... I checked his email to me about the gun and he DID try the screws and the did FIT....... tough getting good help......

 

[Pete E.]

Guys,

Has anyone used an accurate digital scale to weigh both original and various repro's...??? I suspect the bakelite grips would be more dense and weigh a bit more...