O.K., I’m starting a new thread to try to establish an identifying feature of Black Bakelite type grips. It’s pretty apparent that the market is awash with repro plastic grips.
Gibson in The Krieghoff Parabellum covers both brown and black grips in detail. Gibson states that use of the term Bakelite is technically incorrect as the grips were made of a softer material. Bakelite is a trade name and describes a synthetic made material. One of the properties of Bakelite is it a thermosetting verses a thermoplastic material. Thermosetting material maintains its shape under heat whereas thermoplastic material will alter their shape when subjected to heat. I believe that’s why plastic Repros, thermoplastics, have been reported to bend in hot water and real black grips don’t because like Bakelite the real grips are thermosetting. Bakelite is made from Formaldehyde and Carbolic acid which is related to coal. I’m speculating that black Mauser grips being made from a coal derivative were similar enough, at least in looks, and possibly chemical composition to Bakelite, to result in the term Bakelite being used to describe the grips.
Gibson states that the brown grips were plastic that appears to most likely be made from a petroleum base. The later black grips were made from a coal derivative that was not as strong as the plastic grip but coal supplies were more available than petroleum.
The brown plastic grips were phased out during 1940 and Krieghoff started using the same black bakelite type grips used on Mausers until 1944. The black bakelite material starts to appear in 1939. Gibson doesn’t describe any black grips ever being made of petroleum based plastic. The reason to switch from plastic to bakelite type was because petroleum was in short supply.
From personal observation of grips at gun shows and photos posted on the two Luger forums, I have noticed that one type of grip that has been reported to be an original Mauser black grip possesses a differentiating characteristic that if present in all original black grips would be a basis for identifying real black grips from plastic repros. The characteristic is shown in photos from forum members and is the fibrous material that shows up in the screw holes and other locations that appear as a straw like substance imbedded in the material.
Following photos have been taken from the forums. I don't have the names to give credit.
Download Attachment:
black_widow_grips-4.jpg
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Download Attachment: black_widow_grips-7.jpg
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My conjecture is that since the grips were not as strong as the plastic type, a binder or filler was utilized to provide some attribute that was considered desirable. Possibly to add strength or keep the grip together if damaged. The grip would be less likely to shatter and break in small pieces since the material was not a strong material and may break apart if subjected to a hard blow. Of course, this doesn’t preclude Bakelite type grips being made without the binder material. In this case it appears that the only true identifier would be the heat test, (hot water?) to determine if the material was thermosetting, i.e. didn’t bend under heat since thermoplastic, (bends under heat) has not been reported being used to make grips.
As an aside, the photos Gibson use in his book for the Mauser grips don’t exhibit the qualities that many folks attribute to real grips e.g. the back of the grips are not machined or exhibit machine marks from the dies. The second addition was published in 1988 and I don’t know when the photos were taken.
For the Mauser grips, the photos and text describe/show one screw hole in each grip located at the inside top of right grip and inside bottom of left grip.
All brown plastic Krieghoffs have two holes in back of each grip; one on top and one on the bottom.
I’m asking all the folks that would be kind enough to participate in trying to establish if original black Bakelite type grips exhibit the fibrous material as shown in the accompanying photos. In many cases you must look with a magnifier/loupe to see the straw like material. It would be nice if folks that could trace the grips and Luger such that there was no question that the grips are real would participate.
Many folks have already used the hot water test and it would be nice to know if the grips that passed the hot water test, i.e. didn’t bend, exhibit the fibrous filler material.
I’d also like to know how the folks that had grips that bent under hot water performed the test. How hot was the water, how long was the grip subjected to the heat?
I’m trying to establish if any bakelite type grips were made without the fibrous material. If someone applied heat and the grip didn’t bend and the grip didn’t exhibit fibrous material it could mean that bakelite grips were made without the fibrous additive.
I’m searching for anything that may zero in on factors that could be utilized to ID real grips.
There are a lot of smart folks out there and I’d appreciate any input that may help in performing this survey.
One last item, Jan Still stated that there was a posting that listed the material that the grips were made of; if anyone knows where this info resides, please let us know.
Thanks in advance.
Tom
Gibson in The Krieghoff Parabellum covers both brown and black grips in detail. Gibson states that use of the term Bakelite is technically incorrect as the grips were made of a softer material. Bakelite is a trade name and describes a synthetic made material. One of the properties of Bakelite is it a thermosetting verses a thermoplastic material. Thermosetting material maintains its shape under heat whereas thermoplastic material will alter their shape when subjected to heat. I believe that’s why plastic Repros, thermoplastics, have been reported to bend in hot water and real black grips don’t because like Bakelite the real grips are thermosetting. Bakelite is made from Formaldehyde and Carbolic acid which is related to coal. I’m speculating that black Mauser grips being made from a coal derivative were similar enough, at least in looks, and possibly chemical composition to Bakelite, to result in the term Bakelite being used to describe the grips.
Gibson states that the brown grips were plastic that appears to most likely be made from a petroleum base. The later black grips were made from a coal derivative that was not as strong as the plastic grip but coal supplies were more available than petroleum.
The brown plastic grips were phased out during 1940 and Krieghoff started using the same black bakelite type grips used on Mausers until 1944. The black bakelite material starts to appear in 1939. Gibson doesn’t describe any black grips ever being made of petroleum based plastic. The reason to switch from plastic to bakelite type was because petroleum was in short supply.
From personal observation of grips at gun shows and photos posted on the two Luger forums, I have noticed that one type of grip that has been reported to be an original Mauser black grip possesses a differentiating characteristic that if present in all original black grips would be a basis for identifying real black grips from plastic repros. The characteristic is shown in photos from forum members and is the fibrous material that shows up in the screw holes and other locations that appear as a straw like substance imbedded in the material.
Following photos have been taken from the forums. I don't have the names to give credit.
Download Attachment:
black_widow_grips-4.jpg61.12KB
Download Attachment:
black_widow_grips-5.jpg59.35KB
Download Attachment:
black_widow_grips-7.jpg46.66KB
Download Attachment:
black_widow_grips-8.jpg75.43KB
Download Attachment:
bw_grips3.jpg25.48KB
Download Attachment:
bw_grips7.jpg86.81KB
My conjecture is that since the grips were not as strong as the plastic type, a binder or filler was utilized to provide some attribute that was considered desirable. Possibly to add strength or keep the grip together if damaged. The grip would be less likely to shatter and break in small pieces since the material was not a strong material and may break apart if subjected to a hard blow. Of course, this doesn’t preclude Bakelite type grips being made without the binder material. In this case it appears that the only true identifier would be the heat test, (hot water?) to determine if the material was thermosetting, i.e. didn’t bend under heat since thermoplastic, (bends under heat) has not been reported being used to make grips.
As an aside, the photos Gibson use in his book for the Mauser grips don’t exhibit the qualities that many folks attribute to real grips e.g. the back of the grips are not machined or exhibit machine marks from the dies. The second addition was published in 1988 and I don’t know when the photos were taken.
For the Mauser grips, the photos and text describe/show one screw hole in each grip located at the inside top of right grip and inside bottom of left grip.
All brown plastic Krieghoffs have two holes in back of each grip; one on top and one on the bottom.
I’m asking all the folks that would be kind enough to participate in trying to establish if original black Bakelite type grips exhibit the fibrous material as shown in the accompanying photos. In many cases you must look with a magnifier/loupe to see the straw like material. It would be nice if folks that could trace the grips and Luger such that there was no question that the grips are real would participate.
Many folks have already used the hot water test and it would be nice to know if the grips that passed the hot water test, i.e. didn’t bend, exhibit the fibrous filler material.
I’d also like to know how the folks that had grips that bent under hot water performed the test. How hot was the water, how long was the grip subjected to the heat?
I’m trying to establish if any bakelite type grips were made without the fibrous material. If someone applied heat and the grip didn’t bend and the grip didn’t exhibit fibrous material it could mean that bakelite grips were made without the fibrous additive.
I’m searching for anything that may zero in on factors that could be utilized to ID real grips.
There are a lot of smart folks out there and I’d appreciate any input that may help in performing this survey.
One last item, Jan Still stated that there was a posting that listed the material that the grips were made of; if anyone knows where this info resides, please let us know.
Thanks in advance.
Tom
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