Black Bakelite type grips

Patrick,
First of all allow me to THANK YOU for all your effort in trying to trace down info regarding the Black grips; especially since they’re not in your area of interest.

In your previous conversation with Herr Römmler he said “The grips were made of “Duroplast” (Bakelit and/or Phenol).” I’m with Dave regarding being a Chemist.
I’d like to ask if you could take the info Sauerfan posted (copied below) regarding the different material codes and ask Herr Römmler what material codes were used to make the Black and Brown grips. Was there more than one material code utilized; did they start with one material and then change to another? Is he aware of the different codes? I’m trying to establish if different materials were utilized which- if in fact is what happened- may explain why we see different types of plastic materials. If only one type of material was utilized then the differences would be difficult to explain if they were the only producer of grips other than all others are repros. You stated in another post that “Römmler was the only supplier of plastic grips for Krieghoff and Mauser.” I’m wondering what the basis of that statement is? Did Herr Römmler make that statement in your previous conversation? It’s important to establish if they were the only supplier. If not, who else made grips? Based on the samples, it appears that the Krieghoff grips were made from a different formula of plastic material- no filler obvious- than the later Black grips. Ask Herr Römmler the reason for the change, and if there was a difference, did the Krieghoff formula ever get used for black grips. How many different types of material were utilized throughout the production timeframe?
Also, I’m curious as to why the black grips were not maker marked.
One last item regarding the moulds; the machining marks appear one way on some grips and are different on others. Does Herr Römmler have any insight that may explain these difference e.g. different moulds from different time periods?

List of the material codes of the material testing institution, as per: 31. December, 1938 :

type 1 phenol resin (Bakelite) with inorganic (mineral) filler
type 2 synthetic resin with asbestos and other organic fillers
type 3 synthetic resin with asbestos and other organic fillers
type 4 bitumen with asbestos and other organic fillers
type 6 rosin or bitumen with inorganic filler
type 7 rosin or bitumen with inorganic filler
type 8 bitumen with inorganic filler
type A Acetyl cellulose with or without filler
type K urea resin with organic filler
type M of phenol resin (Bakelite) with inorganic (mineral) filler (asbestos?)
type O phenol resin (Bakelite) with wood flour as a filler
type S phenol resin (Bakelite) with wood flour as a filler
type T of phenol resin (Bakelite) with txtile fibers as a filler
type X cement or glass with asbestos and other inorganic fillers
type Y borate of lead with mica
type Z phenol resin (Bakelite) with cellulose as a filler
to another?

Also, the paragraph below in the last sentence there’s a mention of Bakelite wood flour as filler. I’d like to ask that you query Herr Römmler regarding the relationship of the above codes to the Bakelite wood flour description.
CLASSIFICATION of PRESSMASSEN (molding materials) the unclear market situation with a huge number of Presswerken (molding works) led early to attempts to put through a marking obligation. As first one the association of German electrotechnician (VDE) took the initiative which represented one of the main buyers of the Pressmassen with the electrical industry. The VDE developed as the first directives into the classification. In 1924, finally, the technical union became the manufacturer typed Preßmassen and Preßstoffe (T.V). created, the later technical union of the manufacturers of insulants free of rubber. Their (Her) members underwent a voluntary test by the state material testing office in Berlin Dahlem. In the test character a two-digit code about stylized M identifies the Presswerk, the code under M the type of the Pressmasse. The picture example shows a marking of the Heinrich-Römmler AG in Spremberg and gives (indicates) which is added to the Bakelite wood flour as a filler

Patrick, I’ve attempted to highlight the questions from the statements to make it easier for you. I hope I didn’t make it worse.
Thanks again,
Tom

This is the file Patrick sent me. I've included all of the file as I wanted everyone to read what he provided. Much thanks to Patrick for all he has done to gather this info. A quick reading will show much more work is required to bring this subject to conclusion. Many questions still remain to be answered. I'll digest this info and see where it leads.
THANKS AGAIN PATRICK.

Meeting with Herr Witt, Technical Manager, of Hermann Romler - Kunststofftechnik, 15345
Rehfelde, Brandenburg, Germany.
The Company
The first Herr Rommler founded the company in Spremberg. Production was based on his original patents (1889) for moulding phenol resin using heat and pressure.
The company expanded but experienced difficulties during the depression (1920) and was taken over by the Sprela Company.
Hermann Rommler then started a new company, together with a dormant partner (Schuiz) in Rehfelde (near Berlinwith further production facilities in Spremberg, Lausitz. The new company
adopted the trademark HRS (Hen-mann Rommler & Schuiz), concentrating on Bakelite moulding.
To complicate matters further, there is a large West German plastics company, also named Rommler which has no connection. This company is internationally known for producing Melanin table-top surfaces.
Herr Rommler met the American (Mr. Baker?) who invented the Bakelite substance and they agreed that they had both been working on the same problems at the same time.
Hermann Rommler made pistol and bayonet grips during WWII. The Russians took all the machinery and the factory in Spremberg was destroyed. His production facilities in Rehfelde were taken over by the East German state as a socialist enterprise.
After German re-unification, Herr Rommler successfully applied to have his company returned. Personnel told me today that they also made parts for the East German government (army and
police) during the communist era.
Herr Witt started as a form (mould) maker, and is now in charge of production. He has never heard of a "Ritzmann Company".

The Production Process Phenol, heated to 170 - 180° C is liquid. It is poured into the form. The product is then ejected, the ejectors leaving the flat, round marks on the rear of the grips. The round "screw holes" are NOT threaded. The form (mould) is made with jagged edged extensions that serve to hold the grip down while the top form is lifted off. When the grip is ejected from the form, the jagged edges of the "screw hole" normally break. It is merely a
coincidence that the grip screws fit, as if the holes were threaded.
Herr Witt showed me a collection of early production Bakelite articles and I was impressed by their quality. The weight of the material and the keen edges of these products (a presentation
plate, ash tray etc) put them in a class of their own and I can well believe that Bakelite Luger grips could be as attractive as wood.
The Materialprufungsamt Dahlem (See copy of the Leitfaden Technische Vereinigung, Frankfurt am Main)

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Although Hen- Witt was unwilling to make any definitive pronouncement without being able to view an original grip, this was the only picture (see above) that he was prepared to state as being genuine.
Most of the other pictures are probably of "foreign made" products. He maintains that the surface quality of the grip would enable him to judge on this point. I showed him a cheap, black plastic grip and he immediately said that it was Russian. The sawdust was mixed in with the resin; the surface was chequered and rough.
The left hand stamp in the picture is still in use (see page Techn. Vereinigung). It was first used by the Materialprufungsamt Dahlem (Berlin). This was an administrative auditing bureau. Production companies paid dues to have their products audited (Hermann Rommler still uses their auditing facilities, together with this stamp as proof of quality control).
The Technische Vereinigung (technical Association) took over from the Materialprufungsamt Dahlem after WWII.
The small dot within the D on their present control stamp shows that the stamp is post WWII. So WWII production must have the stamp without the dot.
A closer inspection of the M;D stamp (on the left) would show that two small digits are integrated above and below the M. These are specific to the type of resin (material) and to the manufacturer. The material code number should be identical to one on the list you sent me.
The manufacturer's trade mark is on the right (HRS). The 8964 mark in the centre is "of no consequence". It can only be an item number -either determined by the manufacturer or by the customer.
Authenticity
Herr Witt stated that Herr Rommler could only have meant that he was the only manufacturer of grips with his company code marks on them (within the MD and with his trade mark). But there were most likely further factories making these grips. The number of manufacturers would have been limited by the great expense of making the forms.
Herr Witt was adamant that EVERY manufacturer would have had to use the MD proof mark with his own specific manufacturer's code as well as the material code within the MD mark. The use of a trade mark stamp was a matter of choice.
Grips without the MD stamp MUST be considered as "foreign" - NOT AUTHENTIC, and certainly could not have been manufactured for purchase by the German State.
He advised that this could easily be confirmed by the present Technische Vereinigung in Frankfurt/Main.
Neither the material used, nor the jagged edged holes, or any other criteria could provide positive proof of authenticity as exactly identical material is still in use.
Conclusion
A phone call to the Technische Vereinigung could very likely provide a list of manufacturers and material codes. Or maybe someone is a bit nearer to Frankfurt/Main and could visit their office.
The Technische Vereinigung would also have to verify Herr Witt's statement that the MD stamp is the definitive proof of authenticity for all WWII German manufactured resin grips.
Patrick

Dave,

This is a misunderstanding. I agree – there MUST have been more than one black grip manufacturer.

During the past fortnight I have interviewed or `phoned the following:

Römmler´s son and his technical manager in charge of production, Herr Witt,

Dr. Wülbüchler, Head of the Arbeitsgemeinschaft Verstärkte Kunststoffe e.V. (Working Association – re-inforced synthetics) – a sub-division of the BAM (the national German material testing association). The BAM (previously Materialprüfungsamt Dahlem) was the original proprietor of the MD plastics auditing trade mark.

The Technische Vereinigung e.V. – the present auditing association, still using the MD mark,

and have received preliminary information from the Deutsche Kunststoff Museum (a national museum for synthetic materials).

All agree on the following:

Römmler was the sole manufacturer of the first type of Krieghoff brown grips (clearly marked with his trade mark and the MD mark).

The number of other manufacturers of plastic grips for the P 08 is not likely to be more that three or four as (a) the volume of production would not warrant the high cost of the forms. (b) It was generally recognized that production of the P 08 was finite.

The MD auditing mark was apparently NOT used by other small workshops during the later years of WWII. Nor did most of them use a manufacturer´s code

It is as good as impossible to determine the age of a Bakelite phenol-resin product (apparently it does not deteriorate like other plastics).

Production is simple and does not involve complicated machinery. With a set of forms, grips could be made practically anywhere. Bakelite material only has to be heated to 170-180 degrees centigrade – and poured. It is likely that some small manufacturers still have the forms. The Russians took the Römmler forms.

The conclusion is, that it is almost impossible to determine the authenticity of a black plastic grip. Even brown Römmler grips could have been made in Russia after WWII. It is very likely that grips were made in Germany after WWII for the allied occupation forces. Maybe they are still being made. And, if prices on e-bay continue to progress, a new production run my well be envisaged.

So it definitely would be a good idea to collect a number of identical grips for comparison. And that´s about it.

To Tom, Patrick and Dave - Thanks a bunch!! Now I don't know what the heck I have!! However, I think I have four pair of originals and one pair of I'll call fakes.

Two pair have both "screw holes" on the bottom end of the grips and they are threaded! Two pair have one hole high on the right grip and one hole low on the left grip and they are threaded!

The last one, I'll call a fake, has two holes high, one on each grip, and they appear to not be threaded, but sort of threaded looking and full of fiberous material. These holes are something like what maybe Patrick described. This I believe is a Soviet Set, maybe an East German Set. The left grip of the Original Luger Grips has a thin strip of plastic (Bakelite) running across the top connecting the thicker sections of the grip. This pair has an exposed section with the rear most large section sticking out like a sore thumb. This is one of my criteria to identify these grips. But a word of caution: the original grips could have the thin section broken away, so a thorough examination is necessary. Because of the hole location, I deem these as "fakes".

Very interesting thread, thanks for the hard work and information!!!

Dave, would you describe the four variations you have? Or maybe some photos? I still think there are only two variations!!