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At the risk of beating a dead dog to death, I would like to understand which grips went with which guns and how many variations (or manufacturers) there may have been. Perhaps the back of the grips will give us some clues. As a place to start I’m listing what I have in my data base:

TYPE 1: Exactly like coarse brown HK grips. Randall Gibson lists as 1944 sub-type. 2 holes on each side. Found on:
1940 42 2520f
1940 42 3099h
1940 42 3615h
1940 42 4478h
1940 42 4883h
1940 42 4992h
1940 42 5946h
1940 42 577L
1940 42 966m
1940 42 2237m
1940 42 3434m
1940 42 5103m
1940 42 9433m
1940 42 2046n
1940 42 2049n
41-42 6952n
41 BYF 6649v
41 BYF 5807z
41 BYF 8146z
42 BYF 2006b
42 BYF 3483k
42 BYF 1893h
42 BYF 1003m
1943 HK 11533

TYPE 2: R/H side same as Type 1 but different on L/H side. Found on: 1942 HK 11907

TYPE 3: One hole high on each side.
Found on: 41 BYF 6544p
41 BYF 9154p .... came with 2 original matching alum bottom mags
41 BYF 5021q
41 BYF 5652q .... has original matching alum bottom mag
41 BYF 6125q .... has original matching alum bottom mag
41 BYF 6244q
41 BYF 6299q .... has original matching alum bottom mag
41 BYF 6857q
41 BYF 6971q .... has original matching alum bottom mag
41 BYF 6982q
41 BYF 9858s
42 BYF 1973h
42 BYF 2394n

TYPE 4: One hole low on each side.
Found on:
1940 HK 10743
1940 HK 11142
1940 BYF 1389m
41-42 6021n
41-42 8672r
41 BYF 606p
41 BYF 7775p
41 BYF 1161r
41 BYF 1991r
41 BYF 4578r
41 BYF 5436r
41 BYF 6269r
41 BYF 220s
41 BYF 450s
41 BYF 631s
41 BYF 1207s ... Matching Alum mag see post #399
41 BYF 2149s
41 BYF 4424s
41 BYF 8985t
41 BYF 9301t
41 BYF 2786u
41 BYF 49v
41 BYF 2902w
41 BYF 7138w
41 BYF 7345w
41 BYF 9566x
41 BYF 3269y
41 BYF 3600y
41 BYF 7131y
41 BYF 888z
41 BYF 1512z
41 BYF 2998z
41 BYF 4116z
41 BYF 6241z
41 BYF 1859 NS
41 BYF 1972 NS
41 BYF 2357 NS
41 BYF 3220 NS
41 BYF 4185 NS
41 BYF 4656 NS
41 BYF 6108 NS
41 BYF 7564 NS
41 BYF 81a 41
BYF 2222a 41
BYF 2525a 41
BYF 6556a
41 BYF 6784a
42 BYF 4409 NS
42 BYF 4933b
42 BYF 9752b
42 BYF 954c
42 BYF 1139c
42 BYF 4557c
42 BYF 4665c
42 BYF 7221c
42 BYF 3592d
42 BYF 4992d
42 BYF 2947e
42 BYF 2238f
42 BYF 5785f
42 BYF 6391g
42 BTF 8882G
42 BYF 3149h
42 BYF 4000h
42 BYF 4243h
42 BYF 8697h
42 BYF 3149k
42 BYF 1659L
42 BYF 231L
42 Banner 8282y
42 Banner Commercial 9002w plain alum FXO mag

TYPE 5: One hole each side. L/H low-- R/H high. R/H lug on R/H grip narrow.
Found on:
1940 42 6410d
1940 42 3619e
1940 42 4347h
41 Banner 6946w
41 Banner 6956w –
Portugal Navy 41 Banner Commercial 790y
41 Banner 813y
42 Banner Commercial 7924w
42 Banner Commercial 7987w
42 Banner Commercial 8131w
42 Banner Commercial 8147w
42 BYF Commercial 8264w E/N strawed small parts
42 Banner Commercial 9023w
42 Banner 9046w
42 Banner 9350w
41 BYF 5788r
41 BYF 1021s
41 BYF 8760s
41 BYF 7953t .... has both original alum bottom matching mags
41 BYF 127u
41 BYF 4052y
42 BYF 4041b
42 BYF 3519h
42 BYF 4527h
42 BYF 8316h
42 BYF 1641i
42 BYF 2271k
42 BYF 5332k
42 BYF 934L
42 BYF 2462L
42 BYF 7999L
42 BYF 337m
42 BYF 937m
1942 HK 11772
1943 HK 11337
1943 HK 11567
no date HK 11795 - see post #411
1944 HK 11244
1944 HK 11298

TYPE 6: One hole each side. L/H low--R/H high. R/H lug on R/H grip wider.
Found on:
1940 Banner Dutch Safety 7218v
1940 Banner 6500w (9mm)
1940-42 7339NS
1940-42 9940f
41-42 4104r
41 BYF 7273o .. Has original & matching mag
41 BYF 976p
41 BYF 2483p ... has both original matching alum mags
41 BYF 9332p
41 BYF 9394p
41 BYF 976r
41 BYF 4273r
41 BYF 5048r
41 BYF 5523r
41 BYF 6150r
41 BYF 9373r
41 BYF 1193s
41 BYF 1463s
41 BYF 2083s
41 BYF 4196s
41 BYF 9777s
41 BYF 681t
41 BYF 155u
41 BYF 687u
41 BYF 1234u
41 BYF 2258u
41 BYF 2667u
41 BYF 4033u
41 BYF 6188v
41 BYF 660w
41 BYF 1358w
41 BYF 1736w
41 BYF 5537w
41 BYF 7855w
41 BYF 1121x
41 BYF 2812x
41 BYF 5168x
41 BYF 6446x
41 BYF 8474x
41 BYF 9600x
41 BYF 3052y
41 BYF 3174y
41 BYF 3438y
41 BYF 3577y
41 BYF 1511z
41 BYF 2765z
41 BYF 2915z
41 BYF 3090z
41 BYF 6290z
41 BYF 232NS
41 BYF 1722NS
41 BYF 2319NS
41 BYF 4318NS
41 BYF 4892NS
41 BYF 5816NS
41 BYF 6275NS
41 BYF 6375NS
41 BYF 6558NS
41 BYF 7444NS
41 BYF 7491NS
41 BYF 7648NS
41 BYF 7900NS
41 BYF 828a
41 BYF 1449a
42 BYF 6712b
42 BYF 7860b
42 BYF 135c
42 BYF 1822c
42 BYF 4089c
42 BYF 4796c
42 BTF 802d
42 BYF 4173d
42 BYF 1010e
42 BYF 2892e
42 BYF 3902e
42 BYF 9656e
42 BYF 2113g
42 BYF 3797g
42 BYF 3858g
42 BYF 3289h
42 BYF 3368h
42 BYF 6316h
42 BYF 9368h
42 BYF 231i
42 BYF 1128i
42 BYF 1405i
42 BYF 1631i
42 BYF 2345i
42 BYF 3392i
42 BYF 5279i
42 BYF 6182i
42 BYF 9957i
42 BYF 5972k
42 BYF 9741k
42 BYF 1305L
42 BYF 2462L
42 BYF 2571L
42 BYF 2645L
42 BYF 3364L
42 BYF 3681L
42 BYF 3730L
42 BYF 5061L
42 BYF 8447L
42 BYF 2363m –
Portuguese 42 BYF 4005m –
Portuguese Army 42 BYF 4856m –
Portuguese 42 BYF 5012m –
Portuguses 42 BYF 8279w –
Portuguese 42 Banner Commercial 8538w
42 Banner Commercial 8554w
42 Banner Commercial 8611w
42 Banner Commercial 9115w
42 Banner Commercial 9119w
42 Banner Commercial 9147w
42 Banner Commercial 9222w
42 Banner Commercial 9350w
1942 Banner Police 6206y Post War—
French Control -- 311(star) Post War—
American Control-- HK 156

Some that don’t fit the patterns:
41 BYF 7091p....LH 3 R/H 4 ...
41 BYF 6298q..... L/H 3 R/H 4
41 BYF 5268s...... L/H 1 R/H 3
41 BYF 4747N..... L/H 1 R/H 4
42 BYF 5195b..... L/H 1 R/H 4
42 BYF 959......... L/H 3 R/H 4
42 BYF 2439i ...... L/H 5 R/H 2
42 Banner 8712w.. L/H 5 R/H 1
1942 Banner 2374y... L/H 1 R/H 3 RG HK Black 44 Type
41 BYF 1255p ...Police issue. See post #296 COMMENTS: R/H side the same on Type 1; 2. L/H side the same on 3 & 4 except for the hole location. Might suggest same company but different mold???
4 &5 L/H the same and 3 has the same keeper pattern but the hole location and size is different.
3, 4 & 5 R/H side rear keeper slightly different on all three. INFO NEEDED: I would appreciate knowing if any of your guns match any of the six types I’ve listed. If you could provide year, maker, and serial number I would update the list and perhaps we can all learn something. It might also be interesting if you would also note if any have original matching alum bottom magazines.
 

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Dave,

Sorry for the delay with my response.

These are seems to be the TYPE 6 (One hole each side. L/H low--R/H high - screw fits) from my byf41. I noticed that although the screw fits, one cannot actually screw it all the way, so the thread might be different from the luger screw.

Another thing I noticed is that the grips (I have only two pairs of type 5 and 6) slightly different in thickness. It may be very helpful to see if there are any systematic variations in thickness. I will take micrometer tomorrow and measure them.

A question: are all grips would have some "straw" inside or there might be one made of solid bakelite material?

Regards

Boris


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Hi Dave, sorry for the delay. I forgot the combination to my safe ;)!!

I have three and they are all Type 6.

41 byf, S/N 6290z
41 byf, S/N 5816 ns
42 byf, S/N 9741k

I'm not sure where you are going, but thought you would like the data!
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Frank........ Thanks for the data....list updated. I'm not real sure where I'm going with it either but thought perhaps it was just a different approach to trying to figure some things out. At this point Type 6 is looking like one of them that has a certain "comfort level".

I appreciate your involvement.......
 

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Dave,

There are small variations in the weight (about 1 g) and thickness (about 1 mm) between the type 5 and 6 grips that I have. I think it is impossible though to say for sure if there is any system without measuring dozens of grips in this way. The results of such measurements may determine whether the grips are original or not and if there are differences between grips produced at different factories.

I have read the previous data on black grips placed on this forum and there was some good information from Frank and other people. However there are very few number of points which can be accepted as a “definite proof” of authenticity. I would like to summarize them here, but everybody welcome to add any comments:

1. The most important – bakelite material. There is no guarantee that all bakelite grips are original but all other “plastic” grips are fakes for sure. As was explained bakelite is a thermoset compound and should not soften or melt with application of heat. A simple “hot pin” test: take a small metal pin (a small straighten paper clip is fine), heat it for 10-15 seconds, until slightly red, on a candle and touch the backside of the grip. Bakelite would not yield, very small indentation will be left and little smell of decomposition (for lack of better description, like burned feathers). The plastic will melt creating a large hole and white smoke.
2. The second of importance is the position and diameter of the “threaded” holes. The grips without holes, not threaded or very large holes are very suspicious. L/H low-- R/H high (type 5 and 6) are the most common on original grips. Please notice that the “thread” may not be thread at all – these are indentations of the jagged rods used to remove grips from the form (mould) but from some other description – can be threats left after a screw used to pressurize the (phenol) liquid inside the mold.
3. Another important factor the position of the “stoppers” – “keepers” and the geometry of the cuts for safety. These are again typically as type 5-6 for Mauser grips and follow down to very small detail.
4. Filler – not clear, there are certainly authentic grips which does not show any fibrous filler, there might be some inorganic powder filler, or no filler at all. Also there are reports on fake grips with filler.
5. “Swirl” marks left after ejection from the molds – these are usually pronounced as circular marks on the “keepers”, but some authentic grips may have very weak marks or these were polished off afterwards.
6. Fit – usually the grips fit well, but there may not fit ideally because they are less flexible to adjust and select than the wooden grips.
7. Overall quality – difficult to say. It looks like in the beginning of 41 the quality was very good, with smooth borders, but later can be rougher because of the hurry/less cleaning during molding. The fake grips may vary from very awful to pretty decent.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Boris...... Thank you for your time and effort put into your comments.
I think you are right as rain about not really being threads..... When you think about it, there would be no way to get them off the molds if they were in fact threaded.... especially on those with 2 holes per side.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Found 41 BYF #7900 ns today and it has type 6 grips. Anybody else found any recently ???? List updated.........
 

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Hi Dave, any chance you could provide the WaA Mark Data. Your new Luger is right in the transition between two E/135 and one E/655, plus one E/135. Thanks!
 

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I have a set of type 1 grips that I purchased 20+ years ago from Simpsons.They were sold as Mauser grips. Are these fairly uncommon? What is the value of type 1 grips? Interesting discussion. Bill
 

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These came from a 1941 Mauser, S/N 8468o, E/655

Type 4 from looking at your pictures. I'm not real sure they are original as the bottom has been shaved for a good fit & there appears to be paint runs on the inside. As you can see in the picture, the name Ernst Victo? Koln, 1942 is inside the left grip. I got the pistol long time ago with no mention about the name/black widow.

Don

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Discussion Starter #14
Don.... Thanks..... Much better. Is the name thru the black paint or is it painted over? Looks to me like it was done after the painting. Were the front sides painted as well???

The holes look good.
 

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Dave

The material is black & the name appears to go into the material, but with what appears to be runs I thought it was paint. The front doesn't look painted, but the edges around the checkering has a high gloss. The grip screws will screw into the holes

Don
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Don... Want to try a picture of the fronts ??? I've never seen any where somebody had to shave them to make them fit. The gouge on the lower L/H grip that appears below the shaving also makes me have my doubts.... Never say never but at this point I would not bet the farm on them........
 

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I never noticed any gouge on that left grip. If you mean that line going across the grip below the hole, that's what I call a paint run. It looks like the lower part was painted & then shaved. I tried a picture of the front, but think it was too large. I'll keep trying.

Don
 

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Dave,
My Mauser, code 42, 41 date, #8672r, has type #4 grips.
My HK, 1940, #11142, has type #4 grips also.
Tim H.
 

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May be you have mentioned my problems with the English language and so it´s possible that I lost the overlook. I can´t see the differences between typ 1and 2. I got typ 1 grip in brown and black calor. Is their any difference between Mauser and Krieghoff with these typ of grips? Klaus
 
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