. A lot of evidence points to high percentage of byf Lugers (both grip types) being allocated to w-SS. Actually the only new Lugers made during the timeframe when the SS was authorized new weapons were the 41 and 42 byf production.
Vlim,........I think you put everything in perspective........Some people are are caught up in this Black Widow frenzy.Could you elaborate on this. Because I have a hard time believing it.
In fact, the only documented SS-sale of P08's I have seen to date is from 1939.
Another interesting fact is that the SS favored wood for use at the Eastern Front, to prevent frostbite mishaps. Not sure how well plastic would hold up in sub-zero temperatures?
And let's not forget the last batch of plastic gripped P08's that was dumped on Portugal because the HWaA did no longer want them.
And Bulgaria, for the most part, turned theirs over to the Russki's, being the 2nd. to last contract, prior to Portugal, I believe...Bulgaria changed sides, didn't they...? (Going on memory here)...Could you elaborate on this. Because I have a hard time believing it.
In fact, the only documented SS-sale of P08's I have seen to date is from 1939.
Another interesting fact is that the SS favored wood for use at the Eastern Front, to prevent frostbite mishaps. Not sure how well plastic would hold up in sub-zero temperatures?
And let's not forget the last batch of plastic gripped P08's that was dumped on Portugal because the HWaA did no longer want them.
I’ll be glad to.Could you elaborate on this. Because I have a hard time believing it.
In fact, the only documented SS-sale of P08's I have seen to date is from 1939.
Another interesting fact is that the SS favored wood for use at the Eastern Front, to prevent frostbite mishaps. Not sure how well plastic would hold up in sub-zero temperatures?
And let's not forget the last batch of plastic gripped P08's that was dumped on Portugal because the HWaA did no longer want them.
Understand what you mean, but you can have two exact byf's side by side, one with black grips, the other with wood and swap the grips, and now the other is a BW and the other isn't????I love Black Widows. They just have such a cool mystique to them and for me, it's based purely on looks ....
I would think your theory would also apply to the rapid expansion of airforce ack-ack - and would apply to police, who were mobilized and went to the eastern front. And would apply to Africa and many other places.I’ll be glad to.
The newly named W-SS was only formally put under OKW (OKH was delegated weapons allocation responsibility by OKW) near the end of 1940. Prior to that the SS (VT, LAH and TKV) resorted to older weapons “hand me downs” often reworked in SS armories, private contracts (no doubt some Banners as the 39 era you mentioned) and an allocation “gift or seizure” of captured CZ weapons and vehicles.
What’s significant is that in December of 1940 the new W-SS began a period of raising and or expanding existing brigades to an increase of 10 new divisions by the spring of 1943, probably and expansion of around 250,000 field troops. In addition most of the total of 13 full divisions during this time frame were fully rebuilt at least once and several rebuilt twice due to combat losses. This required a LOT of weapons and photos from this period (1941- mid 43) clearly shown that the P.08 was by far the dominant 9mm carried by the W-SS. Again the byf was the only game in town in terms of new manufacture P.08 between 1941 and late 42 except for 10k or so 41/42.
I don’t think that the SS were anymore prone to frostbite than any other German front line formation nor do I think Bakelite grips made the risk worse. If so those receiving P.38s and Radoms were in a world of hurt. I also have no reason to believe that W-SS did not receive a healthy allocation of wooden griped byf Lugers.
Lastly I would suggest that the late 1942 diversion of byf Lugers to Portugal and Bulgaria had nothing to do with the Wehrmacht not wanting these guns but rather everything to do with shoring up strategic alliances. Keep in mind that during this same period Germany sold tens of thousands of new K98ks and many MG34s to Portugal, fighter aircraft to Bulgaria and high quality military optics, weapons and other materials to Sweden.
You keep hitting the mail directly on the head,Vlim!I would leave black widow to spiders, not guns with plastic grips.
They were molding phenolic P38 grips, PP & PPk grips, MP40 grips & fore-ends etc. A better question would be why not? JBI think that one aspect of the introduction and subsequent use of composition grips on Lugers has been much overlooked and possibly too simplified and that is the question: why?
Right, so I wonder if they were going to phenolic grips on P. 08s say starting in mid 1941 then why didn’t they go to phenolic grips on P.O8s?? I mean when they adopted in the design (on what is listed in the post above) or switched materials in other cases like late war browning HPs they made all subsequent pieces with those new materials. We see with the byf mid 41 production through the end of 42 production a more or less flat percentage (20-30% estimated) of composition grip use as opposed to a ramp up over 18 months or even a switch over. This is very unusual for any other similar change that I know of in German small arms production maybe even unique. My only explanation is that they wanted to use up wooden blanks pre cut for grips or they were fitting phenolic grips to Lugers going to a particular services depots, which I think is unlikely. On the other hand if I was chief of OKH ordnance and paying .5 Reichmark less for every Luger with phenolic grips then I would have had 175,000 fitted with them instead of 35,000They were molding phenolic P38 grips, PP & PPk grips, MP40 grips & fore-ends etc. A better question would be why not? JB
You have to remember that luger production was ending. You stop wood grip production and use up stock on hand and make up shortfalls with phenolic. They already had the molds. Aluminum mag bases the same, they could stop using valuable aluminum and machine time and make up/finish out what was needed.Right, so I wonder if they were going to phenolic grips on P. 08s say starting in mid 1941 then why didn’t they go to phenolic grips on P.O8s?? I mean when they adopted in the design (on what is listed in the post above) or switched materials in other cases like late war browning HPs they made all subsequent pieces with those new materials. We see with the byf mid 41 production through the end of 42 production a more or less flat percentage (20-30% estimated) of composition grip use as opposed to a ramp up over 18 months or even a switch over. This is very unusual for any other similar change that I know of in German small arms production maybe even unique. My only explanation is that they wanted to use up wooden blanks pre cut for grips or they were fitting phenolic grips to Lugers going to a particular services depots, which I think is unlikely. On the other hand if I was chief of OKH ordnance and paying .5 Reichmark less for every Luger with phenolic grips then I would have had 175,000 fitted with them instead of 35,000
As I’ve said there is no question a significant percentage of the 41 and 42 production were sent to sent to the SS. Love it or hate it or not give a darn it was what it was. I can only speculate that the use of existing seasoned blanks was the reason for the relatively low and flat line use of phenolic grips for 18 months but it’s difficult to get past the possible cost difference and manhours aspect of hand working and checkering close to 150,000 pairs of wooden grips when something much more economical were availableFolks want their BW to have been used by (or issued to) the mean SS officer or specially made for the SS. By 41the luger was just a dying breed headed for planned obsolescence. JB
