[Guest]

Hi All !
I was going to write and ask how to "certify" bakelite grips on a newly purchased " Black Widow". Looked at the site and the link provided and that link displayed grips that mine look identical too. I am attaching photos of the pistol and would appreciate input from some of you "old hands" for this "newbie". Any comments about the pistol would be appreciated as well as some idea of the range for fair market value on this gun. Thanks all....Thom

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[Guest]

ADDITIONAL PHOTOS FOR PREVIOUS POST

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[Guest]

OOPPPSSS! TWO MORE

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[Luke]

bearnala -

Is the bottom hole on the left grip threaded?

Luke

 

[Pancho]

Bearnala,

I have the same question as Luke.

First, what website did you look at to verify your grips...mine?
Second, there are folks on this forum with considerably more experience and knowlegeable than me.

Since the gunmarks alone do not make a BW, unless they are paired with the black grips, then the grips are of primary importance because they can be more easily faked than the gun marks.
Thus, the grips control.
The initial point of inquiry re. BW grips is the threading in the holes. The holes in your photos do not appear threaded. On your grips, one hole has a bubble in it. I can't tell if the bubble is at the bottom of the hole, or if it covers the hole. Sometimes, this bubble can cover a hollow area, sort of a residual "flap" from the molding process (I have seen this flap thing before). Removing the bubble or flap to verify if there are threads underneath would be problematic. Don't do it.
Look into both holes with a magnifying glass and a bright light.
Do you see a thread pattern?
Value, if grips ok: approx. $1,500 - 2,000

Luke,
I was going to ask the same question re. the grip holes.
Help me understand something. Assuming that you have a BW and can exaimine your grips...
are the holes actually threaded, or do the holes just have a threaded look to them?
I'm not certain that the holes are actually thread,
ie. spiraled, one continuous ridge from top thread to bottom thread.
The few grip holes that I've seen are so rough that it is difficult to tell if they are actually threads (as in nut/bolt threads).
Are the threads more like a series of concentric ridges that are not connected to each other?
...more like the ridged holes in small plastic components to secure a pressure fitting, typically used in automobile interiours, that sort of thing.

Pancho

PS. Need to examine holes in il to answer this one.

 

[Luke]

Pancho,

Yes, the holes are actually threaded on my one known-authentic pair of black grips. In fact, the grip screws will nicely screw into the holes. Some collectors have speculated that this feature allowed spare grips to be shipped with the grip screws provided in the holes. I know of no documented evidence of this, however.

The "islands" on the insides of my black grips clearly show precise tooling marks which would have been cut into the molds used for these grips. I have found identical mold markings on other known-authentic black grips. I would not presume to declare that grips without these mold markings are not authentic; but I am pretty certain that (at least) a subset of the authentic black grips have these markings.



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Luke

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[Pancho]

Luke,
That is terrific info. I took my BW out of the safe, took the grips off, and the grip screws went right into the internal holes with no problem. I was thrilled knowing that they served a purpose. It did not seem Tuetonic that these holes would be without a purpose. I'm sold. Those holes might be for shipping, but I think it is more likely that they were used in the assembly or inventory process to mate screws with grips. Additionally, the hole in my grip (in the photo attached) looks to be "pulled out" as though someone about 60 years ago had screwed one in too much, deforming the hole a bit. This was the condition of the hole before I put in the screw. I first looked at it with a magnifying glass to see it it was threaded and notice the threads, and the deformation. My opinion, I was not the first to put the screw in this hole. Someone beat me to it by 60 years.

Also, islands on my grips show the forming mold tool marks.
I've added this info to my web site, and have credited you for the info. If you want the credit changed in any way, let me know. Here it is:
Thanks,
Pancho
PS. No kidding, I got a rush with this grip screw discovery.
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[Luke]

Pancho -

Disclaimer: I cannot absolutely state that the mold tooling marks I have documented should be used to identify authentic black grips TO THE EXCLUSION OF ALL OTHER BLACK GRIPS. As I stated earlier, I am confident that black grips having the other known characteristics of authentic grips AND mold marks identical to the ones pictured represent at least a subset of the authentic black grip set.

The mold tooling marks I provided in my previous post (above) are IDENTICAL to those found in highly detailed pictures provided by several members of Jan's Forum and the LugerForum. These members are Luger collectors with substantial experience who currently own black grips known by them to be authentic.

As for the threaded holes, in my (admittedly limited) experience each grip that I have examined contains only one threaded hole.

Sadly, it seems likely that the American Waffenfabrik folks will start drilling and threading the fakes if they have not already done so.

Hope this helps.

Luke