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Wondering what I ran across today.

The serial number starts with a G and looks like with a double strike. I think the RE stamp means Italian Army.

Any thoughts as to originality and when the pistol/holster were made?


Your help would be appreciated.

Jim
 

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I believe it to be a M1935 that has been refinished. The serial starts with a 6 and not a g. Hard to see because of refinish. Late war, blank slide above 600,000 from what I know, which is limited. The holster appears to be a reproduction that would have been for a German issue and not Italian army. IMHO
John
 

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No, no, no. This is a 'G' series Model 1934 in 9mm Corto, blank slide from mid to late 1943. Especially odd because of the missing CAL 9. so no caliber designation on this beauty. Just a few months of this configuration. And this one is not refinished, either. This is the original blue. Many show up like this but still a fine example of occupied German manufacture. Jim, is that a [ML] inspector stamp on the right trigger guard? Dan
 

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It is my understanding that 1934 production ended in a suffix AA or BB. Please post examples of blank slide M1934 for education. It shows signs of being refinished and in some spots rubbed pretty hard. None of the markings are crisp and I have not seen a blank slide M1934, not to say they are not out there as I am a novice. I have only seen blank slide M1935 above 600,000. I may be corrected quickly and happy to be correct as I am here to learn.
John
 

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John, Why don't you consider the above example to BE (the beginning of) your education? If you spend 3-minutes doing some Go-broker searches for 'Beretta 1934' you will find plenty of earlier (prior to AA and BB) pieces including the blank slide models. There are few published books on the wartime Beretta (so I understand the confusion) but so many examples can be found with those search parameters that I would hate to deny you that moment of fun when you realize just how common they are. But here is a hint on the serial numbers: 6-digit serials were first produced from 1934 to 1942, then in 1942 began the F-series and this G-series shortly thereafter followed by the AA and BB series, the last of the wartime (and German influence) pieces. During that time the Model 1935 became the preferred caliber and those were the mid 550,000 up to that 600,000 serials you mentioned becoming blank (and no serial numbered) slides.

I promise you. Do that Gunbroker 'Advanced' search of 'Completed Items' you will be flooded with examples. Not many F- and G-series but they are there, too. Dan
 

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...... still a fine example of occupied German manufacture. .... is that a [ML] inspector stamp on the right trigger guard?
Quick review of Italian history and the Beretta 1934/35


I see that many times there is a little "confusion" about Italian history, with respect to the production of the Beretta 1934 and 1935.


Please consider these quick items when you ask for a Beretta.


From 1934 to July 25[SUP]th[/SUP], 1943: Mussolini ruled, along with the King. Also, from 1940, although Italy was at war production was regular both for military and civilian purposes. A small batch was sold to Germany (GECO) and about 40.000-41.000 units to Rumania (9 scurt). Italian guns had the so called EF (Fascist Era) date marking on the slide.



From July 26[SUP]th[/SUP] to September 8[SUP]th[/SUP] 1943: After the fall of the Fascist Party the King resumed full power, and the war continued. Nobody knew what future would be and the slides of the guns were left "blank" because of the uncertain situation. The Germans had nothing to do with the Beretta production.



Serial from 1934 to Sept. 1943: Mod. 1934 from 500.000 to about G20.000; 1935 from 409.000 to 504.805


From September 9[SUP]th[/SUP] to the end of the war (May 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] 1945). The Germans took control of every Italian facility, Beretta included, and decided what to produce and to whom to deliver: A small batch of guns was delivered to German troops (WaA162) but almost all the production was for Italian troops. Model 1934 production was discontinued (only 19.800 units produced with left over parts) and Mod 1935. was increased. Old "property punches" (es. Crown/eagle) were used as "Proof mark" (Brescia lion, 4UT, Crown/eagle)

Production continued despite bombing raids, sabotage, lack of electricity,... the exterior finish of the guns became rougher and rougher but parts fit remained consistently high, with functionality and reliability unimpaired.


Serial: Mod.1934 from about G20.000 to G.57486 and about 19800 serial AA and BB; Mod 1935 from 504.805 to 615.969.

The Proof house stamp in this gun is IVU, or 4th Tecnical Office, that soon will became 4UT.
 

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I appreciate the correction on the serial numbers. I used three references before I spoke and noticed all three really focused on war time production. My apologies for leading Jim_ish astray. I would also appreciate further discussion on the finish of the gun and the holster.
John
 

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The holster looks authentic enough. On the pistol the finish and metal work is original to my eyes. I have seen dozens of examples that look like this where the serial looks oddly impressed and buffed over or the lighter strike Crown/RE. This is normal at this serial range. The red dot is another indication of originality. Often this is gray or black if refinished. Yours is bright red. The barrel should have last 5-digits of serial on the shank. The 1935 was more commonly 4-digits.
 

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As you can see by my Avitar/Name I must really study Beretta. I ask (about the military inspector's stamps) because when I began I was not sure what details were going to be important and which are pure trivia. It is an old, odd habit. To me their stamps are one small detail but unique enough to note. And you did not say but that serial is 06102 on that barrel? Sometimes there are other stamped letters in a box on either side of the barrel shank. Thanks for the ML confirmation. Others at this time were MA and NS (and I think SN) plus a few others. Many are not marked.
 

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Blank Slide "G" prefix Army IVU start at about G02468 and go to G28976, so your gun is in the "sweet spot" for this variation. Later the RE guns will have the Brescia marking, cal 9, the range is G14427 to G48634. Then the 1943 XXI slides were used again in the G50329 to G53328 range with the Brescia marking. Later 1943 XX slides are used for the AA guns .... weird right? .... and overlap for the cal 9 designation on the slide to stop confusion with the blank slide Mo 1935's for the ammo.

Earlier blank slide G prefix guns are mostly AF marked with the ja47 rework marking on them.

Odd things at Beretta for the time in my opinion but the Mo 1934 was mostly made from left over parts when the Germans took control and discontinued the .380 guns but production continued.

My humble 2c from recording serial numbers.

Mark
 

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The Beretta factory was taken over by the German's after they rescued Mussolini from prison in 1943.

FROM WIKIPEDIA:

"The Gran Sasso raid refers to Operation Eiche ("Oak"), the rescue of Italian dictator Benito Mussolini by German paratroopers led by Major Otto-Harald Mors and Waffen-SS commandos in September 1943, during World War II. The airborne operation was personally ordered by Adolf Hitler, planned by Harald Mors, and approved by General Kurt Student. Gerhard Mertins was among the paratroopers who participated in the raid."

After that the factory no longer used the Italian Imperial IVU (4th technical control unit) marking on guns or the Fascist date since the Fascist era was over. Blank slided guns were made until the Germans decided what to do and since the IVU office was no longer valid and marked them with the Brescia proof. Later the office was designated 4UT ... basically the same marking but organized under German control.

Some later war BB prefix guns will have the 4UT marking after Brescia but the common thought is they were used from spare parts until they ran out of slides and made Mod. 1934 slides around serial number 7543BB like this gun dated 1944.

http://p38guns.com/7683BB.htm

The last recorded Mo. 1934 slide is 7055BB in my DB so I have a big gap in that serial range for the slide transition.

Mark
 

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The Beretta factory was taken over by the German's after they rescued Mussolini from prison in 1943.

FROM WIKIPEDIA:

"The Gran Sasso raid refers to Operation Eiche ("Oak"), the rescue of Italian dictator Benito Mussolini by German paratroopers led by Major Otto-Harald Mors and Waffen-SS commandos in September 1943, during World War II. The airborne operation was personally ordered by Adolf Hitler, planned by Harald Mors, and approved by General Kurt Student. Gerhard Mertins was among the paratroopers who participated in the raid."

After that the factory no longer used the Italian Imperial IVU (4th technical control unit) marking on guns or the Fascist date since the Fascist era was over. Blank slided guns were made until the Germans decided what to do and since the IVU office was no longer valid and marked them with the Brescia proof. Later the office was designated 4UT ... basically the same marking but organized under German control.

Some later war BB prefix guns will have the 4UT marking after Brescia but the common thought is they were used from spare parts until they ran out of slides and made Mod. 1934 slides around serial number 7543BB like this gun dated 1944.

http://p38guns.com/7683BB.htm

The last recorded Mo. 1934 slide is 7055BB in my DB so I have a big gap in that serial range for the slide transition.

Mark
 
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