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Browning HP with Proof but no WAA

5150 Views 18 Replies 10 Participants Last post by  FNitis, 
Z
4
This HP has a proof mark (left side of the trigger web). According to Vanderlinden this may be a gun that was issued (without additional marks added to the Belgium proofs) and then repaired and the German proof added.

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Thanks,
Ted
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P
Ted,
Seems odd that it would be nitro proofed. More likely that it would have a waffen acceptance stamp, ie. E/WaA613 on the left trigger web, and lack a nitro proof. Still identifies the early captures with E/WaA613 as Preoccupation Captured Variation (p.83).

Your HP has a Belgian comrade. The Armand Gavage is a Belgium pistol that oddly has the E/N nitro proof, and does not have a waffen acceptance stamp.
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J
GC and AC are Belgian Army acceptance marks. This pistol was produced and accepted in prewar times by Belgian Army. In my humble opinion it is pistol captured by Germans and accepted without (factory located) Waffenamt stamp. Nice piece! It is the pistol I need for my collection...
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C
Looking at your pictures. it does not appear that it has "WaA" marked any where on it. Is this correct.

Does the German proof appear on any other parts?
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Z
Hi,

No, there are no Waffenampt stamps. Only the Eagle proof on the left site of the trigger web.

Ted
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RockinWR
Ted,
* Interesting piece.
* I'm use to seeing German Proof stamps appearing on the components which have to sustain the cartridge pressure. This, as you may know, is normally the barrel and slide. Don't think I've seen a German proof mark on a frame before; but, I'm always open to learning. What pages of Vanderlinden are you reading to advance the repair/proof association?
* Any evidence of a Inspector's "repair" stamp or of the repair itself to help explain the trigger guard proof?
* Sure is a great looking piece. I'll keep my eye out for corroborating examples.
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C
I have seen the pre-war Hi-Powers with WaA 613 & WaA 140 markings. In fact I have one with the WaA 140 proofs. These do not have the eagle proof.

I have not seen any with just the eagle proof. Ther Germans accepted the Belgian proofing system so there was no need to have any of the pistols re-inspected and german proofed.

I do have difficulty in seeing how the pistol came before the inspector who would have applied the eagle proof. If any one has any ideas on this, they would be appreciated.
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Z
Hi Bob,

On page 187 Vanderlinden says "These guns (Prewar Belgian army proofed) were not marked after the capitulation of Belgium. Some guns were repaired at the factory and were stamped with the testproof but not the WaA marking."

Note that on page 188 he suggests that the first serial number of the WaA 613 accepted frames was 44500. So this gun was probably just issued prior to the take over by the Germans or was at least on its way out of the factory.

No indication of a repair. The bore is rough which does not match the rest of the gun. I am guessing that this indicates the gun was fired a couple times and not cleaned.

I purchased this gun from Harold Anderson. He had it in his collection for a number of years.

Cheers,
Ted
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C
You pistol was out of the factory (perhaps barely) when the Germans came. Looking at the images of your Hi-Power, it has "all" of the Belgian proofs and Beligan military acceptance marks.

(You are correct about the barrel in that someons put a few rounds through it and then did not clean it. This was not nice of them as they should have been more considerate for the collectors of the future. But you can feel safe in the fact that the barrel has not be replaced.)


I have A Hi-Power that is missing the crown over AC & the crown over GC. The procedure was not complete on this one so it was still in the factory/military receiving are when he Germans came. My is serial No. 44639. As can be noted your Hi-Power and my Hi-Power is not that far apart.

My pistol No. 44639 does not have any WaA markings on it.
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F
Interesting! I have about seven pistols in my database in the 43,000 range and none have any test proofs or WaA marking except for one in the 43900 range that Charlie reported to me at one time. Your gun does not look like it has seen much action, unlike most of the guns that I have encountered with (later) added WaA markings or testproofs. I recently found out that the Belgian arsenals were treated in the same way as FN's warehouse. The captured guns were moved and not marked. It looks indeed like yours was most likely never issued to any Belgian officer or soldier. I am not sure why yours would have the test proof on the triggerguard.
Sorry that I am not more detailed.
Anthony V.
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F
Hi Anthony,

the enclosed scan from a German auction catalog of 10-19-2000 shows the HP 35 SN 22012 with E/ acceptance.
I hope that it brings you a little further.
In addition, I would like to thank you for your wonderful book in this place.

Fritz


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C
By chane are you aware of the type of finish that was on the pistol?
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F
The text in the catalog particularly points to a blued high gloss finish.
Hope, that will help you.

Fritz
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C
As a general rule, pre-war Hi-Powers had tangent sights & stock slot. Post war Hi-Powers were primarily fixed sights. As I mentioned this is the general rule.

Looking at the picture you posted and the serial number given, at first blush, I would be inclined to think that it is a post-war Hi-Power because of the fixed sights. The finish you indicated could be either pre-war or post war.

The pre-war Hi-Powers started at serial no. 1. But, when FN re-started production after the was, they also started at serial no. 1. (This does not include the contracts, of which many started at serial no. 1.) Consequently, it is possible to have two Hi-Powers with the same serial number, one is pre-war and the other is post-war.

But any general rule has its exceptions. There were fixed sight Hi-Powers manufactured before 1940. Not very many I would assume since production was geared to the Belgian military and the various foreign contracts. Argentina and Peru did receive contracts of Hi-Powers with fixed sights (which had special markings). Also, there were a few made for the commercial market. I have one that is numbered as serial no. 11202 (fixed sights but with a stock slot). There are a few other known examples, most in the 10/11 k serial number range. For referencfe. the serial numbers of the known commercial Hi-Powers have been recorded in Anthony's book.

So it is possible that the one you posted was pre-war.
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C
I thought that I would keep this portion in a separete message.

The serial number of the one you posted is close to the serial number range of the post-war Danish police contract. I though I would mention this as a guide to dating i nthe event it was a post war model.
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S
I have a late war FN High Power that shows only the military proofs on the slide and frame. There are no WaA markings on it. The SN is 38676a, and it appears to be in original condition (ie. not reblued) with a good blue applied over a rough milled finish. Anyone?
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J
Hi Jan,

See the new thread - thanks!
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Jan C Still
John
More detailed shots, better educate collectors and help in determining if a new purchase is correct. Detailed presentations are encouraged.
Jan
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F
quote:Originally posted by cpw




As a general rule, pre-war Hi-Powers had tangent sights & stock slot. Post war Hi-Powers were primarily fixed sights. As I mentioned this is the general rule.

Looking at the picture you posted and the serial number given, at first blush, I would be inclined to think that it is a post-war Hi-Power because of the fixed sights. The finish you indicated could be either pre-war or post war.

The pre-war Hi-Powers started at serial no. 1. But, when FN re-started production after the was, they also started at serial no. 1. (This does not include the contracts, of which many started at serial no. 1.) Consequently, it is possible to have two Hi-Powers with the same serial number, one is pre-war and the other is post-war.

But any general rule has its exceptions. There were fixed sight Hi-Powers manufactured before 1940. Not very many I would assume since production was geared to the Belgian military and the various foreign contracts. Argentina and Peru did receive contracts of Hi-Powers with fixed sights (which had special markings). Also, there were a few made for the commercial market. I have one that is numbered as serial no. 11202 (fixed sights but with a stock slot). There are a few other known examples, most in the 10/11 k serial number range. For referencfe. the serial numbers of the known commercial Hi-Powers have been recorded in Anthony's book.

So it is possible that the one you posted was pre-war.
Click to expand...
This is a reply to the gun posted by Fritz and the posting made by Charlie; I just mention this so that things do not get too confusing.

I agree with Charlie; this gun looks like a postwar gun to me. This number would have fallen in the 1938 Belgian military contract (if it was prewar). I cannot make a definite determination without seeing/ holding it. I cannot say that it was made close to the Danish contract, as those had contractual numbers and not serial numbers.
In reference to the Peruvian contracts; I still have not found any fixed sight pistols that went to Peru before 1940. The presentation pistol in Steven's book (p.68) is obviously one of a kind and donated in 38 or 39. The picture next to it is a postwar contract however. I have seen one of these close to the number shown and it is clearly a postwar gun. You can clearly distinguish the differences in guns. Also the position to engrave the crest (close to the rear sight) was only standardized in the late 1940s, if not 1950.
Please let me know if you have any info on any prewar Peruvian pistols with fixed sights. Thanks
Anthony
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