This is the first example I have heard of the WaA251 matching across two pistol types. On the recently imported and refinished Star B's the A of WaA is in a different location than the A on other WaA251 pistols I have examined in photographs. Are you stating that the A in the same location on your two pistols?quote:Originally posted by GA_Collector
I have looked at a number of these and the WaA251 stamp appears to be under the blueing. The Waffenant also matches (both WaA251) in number and style with the one on my MAB-D.
quote:Originally posted by garfield
According to Antaris, IMHO, someone who would know, all the Bulgarian contract Star Model Bs were marked as standard commercial pistols, i.e., no Waffenampt acceptance stamps. Why should they? They went from Spain to Bulgaria. According to Antaris, the surplused Bulgarian Star Bs that ended up here were refinished and waffenampts applied in Europe.
Bulgarian contract pistols fall within particular serial number ranges and were delivered in three groups of 5000 pistols each starting in 9/0/43 #'s 225007-225775 & 226101-230331, 2/12/43 #'s 230332-230375 & 231-235782, 3/3/44 #'s 235901-240900.
So, if you buy one of these Star Bs that fall within these serial # parameters, which are stamped WaA251, you may have some difficulty convincing a knowledgeable collector that this stamp is legit.
Certainly sounds good but none of it is substantiated by documented research. The delivery of the Star Bs from the Star factory to Bulgaria is of record; these facts have been researched and documeted. Unless you have some documented information which supports your theory it serves no useful purpose to speculate on what "could have happened".quote:Originally posted by dmclain
There is a good reason these could be WaA251 marked. At this point in time, the Germans were in need of guns, having lost a lot of them at Stalingrad and elsewhere. Already they had contracts to buy many of the Star B's and could have redirected the pistols from the Bulgarian order (their "allies", so to speak) to German use. If you look at a map, you will see that the Stars are made in a town NORTH of parts of France. Shipping by water would have been hazardous through the Mediterranean in 1944 and no doubt the pistols would have traveled through France on their way to the eastern front for use by German forces. The WaA251 office was in France, of course, in 1944. There is nothing illogical about the commandeering of the Star B's for German forces because the Bulgarians were clearly subordinate to the German's needs.
Most of this discussion, including the claims of documentation of delivery, involve "speculation" or "theorizing". If I have documentation or references to support a theory, I will cite those sources. However, the suggestion that is serves no useful purpose to offer possible explanations is unwise. I welcome the publication of theories so that you, I and others can critique those theories. If people stop contributing theories because some people don't want to read them, we will turn the forum into a mutual admiration society for the arrogant. That is one of the problems of other collecting societies.quote:Originally posted by garfield
Certainly sounds good but none of it is substantiated by documented research. The delivery of the Star Bs from the Star factory to Bulgaria is of record; these facts have been researched and documeted. Unless you have some documented information which supports your theory it serves no useful purpose to speculate on what "could have happened".quote:Originally posted by dmclain
There is a good reason these could be WaA251 marked. At this point in time, the Germans were in need of guns, having lost a lot of them at Stalingrad and elsewhere. Already they had contracts to buy many of the Star B's and could have redirected the pistols from the Bulgarian order (their "allies", so to speak) to German use. If you look at a map, you will see that the Stars are made in a town NORTH of parts of France. Shipping by water would have been hazardous through the Mediterranean in 1944 and no doubt the pistols would have traveled through France on their way to the eastern front for use by German forces. The WaA251 office was in France, of course, in 1944. There is nothing illogical about the commandeering of the Star B's for German forces because the Bulgarians were clearly subordinate to the German's needs.
It has always been my understanding that the number of pistols in the Star B contract which was delivered to the Ministry of War, Sofia, Bulgaria in 1943/44 and their serial # range was a matter of record. If I am mistaken on the point I stand corrected.quote:Originally posted by dmclain
Most of this discussion, including the claims of documentation of delivery, involve "speculation" or "theorizing".
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StarBWaA251-3.jpgOriginally posted by Garfield
"I do, however, stand by my position; when collectors, in an attempt to provide answers for apparent anomalies which exist in their collecting field, create scenarios based on postulations which ignore facts that have been previously verified then, these vignettes, other than entertainment value, are of little merit."Originally posted by Tuco.
Still one should always question and always look as you never know what might turn up.I believe this observation goes without saying.
Doug: I believe that your pistol should have a 6 diget serial #? If the serial # falls within the the Bulgarian contract range then I follow the line of thinking that says that it should not be waffenamt stamped.quote:Originally posted by sauer
My Bulgarian Model B is WaA 251 marked, and imported by Cole Distributors in Kentucky. It was not purchased from SOG. It is a correct number for the Bulgarian SN range (23427),and properly proofed, but I remain in doubt of the WaA mark on any recently imported weapon, and of SOG in particular.
