[Radom1935]

Has it ever been verified that the Bulgarian Contract Star B's with the Waffenant on the right rear tang have a Fake Waffenant.

GCG

 

[huggiebear]

I will attempt to explain the situation the best way I can without causing too much trouble. When examined in Germany at the firm who had imported them from the Ukraine, they all were without waffenamts. Not having sold a great number of them , the importer then sold the balance to Francoian [?] who sold all he could and then sold the balance to SOG. At some point in time, the waffenamt stamps appeared on the guns when received at SOG.

kk

 

[cpw]

Interesting. SOG is about an hours drive from here & many swear by them.

Charlie

 

[huggiebear]

Nobody said that SOG put the stamps on the guns. What I said was that between the time they were first observed in Germany and the time received at SOG, the guns had a waffenamt stamp that was not on there as observed at the first viewing.

kk

 

[holster_collector]

This adds confusion to my understanding of the origins of these pistols. First, I understand they were imported from Bulgaria. However, they might have traveled through Germany and to F Jagd on the way--nothing puzzling there. However, these were refinished in classic eastern bloc style with the "dip blue" and some black paint over the rust spots. The WaA251 stamp does not appear to be on top of the refinish but under it. Otherwise, there would be a disruption of the surrounding finish, wouldn't there? Do the WaA marks appear as though they were applied after the refinish?

 

[GA_Collector]

I have looked at a number of these and the WaA251 stamp appears to be under the blueing. The Waffenant also matches (both WaA251) in number and style with the one on my MAB-D.

 

[holster_collector]

quote:Originally posted by GA_Collector

I have looked at a number of these and the WaA251 stamp appears to be under the blueing. The Waffenant also matches (both WaA251) in number and style with the one on my MAB-D.

This is the first example I have heard of the WaA251 matching across two pistol types. On the recently imported and refinished Star B's the A of WaA is in a different location than the A on other WaA251 pistols I have examined in photographs. Are you stating that the A in the same location on your two pistols?

 

[garfield]

According to Antaris, IMHO, someone who would know, all the Bulgarian contract Star Model Bs were marked as standard commercial pistols, i.e., no Waffenampt acceptance stamps. Why should they? They went from Spain to Bulgaria. According to Antaris, the surplused Bulgarian Star Bs that ended up here were refinished and waffenampts applied in Europe.

Bulgarian contract pistols fall within particular serial number ranges and were delivered in three groups of 5000 pistols each starting in 9/0/43 #'s 225007-225775 & 226101-230331, 2/12/43 #'s 230332-230375 & 231-235782, 3/3/44 #'s 235901-240900.

So, if you buy one of these Star Bs that fall within these serial # parameters, which are stamped WaA251, you may have some difficulty convincing a knowledgeable collector that this stamp is legit.

 

[Frank]

Garfield, I'm with you!! The serial numbers of those legit Star Bs are well established. If one gets outside that range, they deserve the results!! Let's go with the established data!!!!

 

[GA_Collector]

The WaA251 is identical between the two pistols in terms of appearance. It is in different locations. On the Mab-D on the frame above the trigger guard and on the spur (again on the frame) of the Star B. According to the http://claus.espeholt.dk/mediearkiv/WAAE.pdf site, this is the correct WaA for French and Spanish items included the Unique, Mab-D, 1935A, 98/G41/43 parts, Astra 300, and Star B. If it was faked, why would they go to the trouble of researching the correct stamp to use and not place it in a similar place as on the Mab-D? Why put it on the spur? No other pistol to my knowledge is marked in that area?

Also, authors have been wrong before on serial number ranges. I believe I remember hearing that all the records for the Eibar plant for this pistol were destroyed or are missing.

 

[holster_collector]

quote:Originally posted by garfield

According to Antaris, IMHO, someone who would know, all the Bulgarian contract Star Model Bs were marked as standard commercial pistols, i.e., no Waffenampt acceptance stamps. Why should they? They went from Spain to Bulgaria. According to Antaris, the surplused Bulgarian Star Bs that ended up here were refinished and waffenampts applied in Europe.

Bulgarian contract pistols fall within particular serial number ranges and were delivered in three groups of 5000 pistols each starting in 9/0/43 #'s 225007-225775 & 226101-230331, 2/12/43 #'s 230332-230375 & 231-235782, 3/3/44 #'s 235901-240900.

So, if you buy one of these Star Bs that fall within these serial # parameters, which are stamped WaA251, you may have some difficulty convincing a knowledgeable collector that this stamp is legit.

There is a good reason these could be WaA251 marked. At this point in time, the Germans were in need of guns, having lost a lot of them at Stalingrad and elsewhere. Already they had contracts to buy many of the Star B's and could have redirected the pistols from the Bulgarian order (their "allies", so to speak) to German use. If you look at a map, you will see that the Stars are made in a town NORTH of parts of France. Shipping by water would have been hazardous through the Mediterranean in 1944 and no doubt the pistols would have traveled through France on their way to the eastern front for use by German forces. The WaA251 office was in France, of course, in 1944. There is nothing illogical about the commandeering of the Star B's for German forces because the Bulgarians were clearly subordinate to the German's needs.

However, the WaA251 on the recent imports differs from that which appears in photos I have seen of known original pieces from the German contract ranges. Look at the vertical orientation of the capital letter A.

I can not conclude either way but would like to know if any non-WaA251 Star B's exist from the Bulgarian contract ranges that pre-date the imports and do not have the WaA251 stamp. If a pair of non-WaA251 pistols exist that bracket one of the recent WaA251 imports, I would be even more suspicious of the recent import's legitimacy.

 

[garfield]

quote:Originally posted by dmclain
There is a good reason these could be WaA251 marked. At this point in time, the Germans were in need of guns, having lost a lot of them at Stalingrad and elsewhere. Already they had contracts to buy many of the Star B's and could have redirected the pistols from the Bulgarian order (their "allies", so to speak) to German use. If you look at a map, you will see that the Stars are made in a town NORTH of parts of France. Shipping by water would have been hazardous through the Mediterranean in 1944 and no doubt the pistols would have traveled through France on their way to the eastern front for use by German forces. The WaA251 office was in France, of course, in 1944. There is nothing illogical about the commandeering of the Star B's for German forces because the Bulgarians were clearly subordinate to the German's needs.

Certainly sounds good but none of it is substantiated by documented research. The delivery of the Star Bs from the Star factory to Bulgaria is of record; these facts have been researched and documeted. Unless you have some documented information which supports your theory it serves no useful purpose to speculate on what "could have happened".

 

[holster_collector]

quote:Originally posted by garfield

quote:Originally posted by dmclain
There is a good reason these could be WaA251 marked. At this point in time, the Germans were in need of guns, having lost a lot of them at Stalingrad and elsewhere. Already they had contracts to buy many of the Star B's and could have redirected the pistols from the Bulgarian order (their "allies", so to speak) to German use. If you look at a map, you will see that the Stars are made in a town NORTH of parts of France. Shipping by water would have been hazardous through the Mediterranean in 1944 and no doubt the pistols would have traveled through France on their way to the eastern front for use by German forces. The WaA251 office was in France, of course, in 1944. There is nothing illogical about the commandeering of the Star B's for German forces because the Bulgarians were clearly subordinate to the German's needs.

Certainly sounds good but none of it is substantiated by documented research. The delivery of the Star Bs from the Star factory to Bulgaria is of record; these facts have been researched and documeted. Unless you have some documented information which supports your theory it serves no useful purpose to speculate on what "could have happened".

Most of this discussion, including the claims of documentation of delivery, involve "speculation" or "theorizing". If I have documentation or references to support a theory, I will cite those sources. However, the suggestion that is serves no useful purpose to offer possible explanations is unwise. I welcome the publication of theories so that you, I and others can critique those theories. If people stop contributing theories because some people don't want to read them, we will turn the forum into a mutual admiration society for the arrogant. That is one of the problems of other collecting societies.

A particular piece of documentation I would like to see posted is a photo of the import WaA side-by-side with a photo of a known 1944 WaA marking. Those I have seen are distinctly different, calling into question the WaA251 of the recent import pistols.

 

[garfield]

quote:Originally posted by dmclain
Most of this discussion, including the claims of documentation of delivery, involve "speculation" or "theorizing".

It has always been my understanding that the number of pistols in the Star B contract which was delivered to the Ministry of War, Sofia, Bulgaria in 1943/44 and their serial # range was a matter of record. If I am mistaken on the point I stand corrected.

I do, however, stand by my position; when collectors, in an attempt to provide answers for apparent anomalies which exist in their collecting field, create scenarios based on postulations which ignore facts that have been previously verified then, these vignettes, other than entertainment value, are of little merit.

That, of course, is my opinion. Which, I have been lead to believe, I am entitled to entertain in like manner as you are yours. Consequently, if having posted a position that conflicts with one held by you is, in fact, a display of arrogance; than so be it. I would much rather discuss collecting with a knowledgeable, though arrogant, person rather than an ignorant one. Again, merely my opinion.

 

[Pancho]

Ditto, Garfield, Frank, Tuco.
Holy cow. It's amazing how folks will disregard the obvious, and believe any wacko concept that best serves them. How can you convice folks that an item has been fabricated, when their counter argument itself is based of fabrications. Bargain basement Waffen marked Bulgarians. I'll take ten, and an order of fries, please. Soon enough, there will be rare variations and attributions as former SS capture weapons. Imagine the bidding frenzy when the first 5,000 Himmler presentation Bulgarians show up. Might go for up to $350, with the matching numbered box and a locke of Heinrichs hair. You try to help, and instead, you're given a tour of Fantasy Land. Remember, no good deed goes unpunished. You deserve to be lynched for trying to impart common sense and good will upon your fellow man. Shame on you.

And now, ladies and gentlemen, for your viewing pleasure...

Download Attachment: BulgarianFakeModBWaA-1.jpg
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Download Attachment: BulgarianFakeModBWaA-2.jpg
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Download Attachment: BulgarianFakeModBWaA-3.jpg
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Download Attachment: BulgarianFakeModBWaA-4.jpg
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[Pancho]

Here's one of those old pre-Bulgarian variations:

Download Attachment: StarBWaA251-1.jpg
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Download Attachment: StarBWaA251-2.jpg
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Download Attachment: StarBWaA251-3.jpg
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[garfield]

Originally posted by Garfield

"I do, however, stand by my position; when collectors, in an attempt to provide answers for apparent anomalies which exist in their collecting field, create scenarios based on postulations which ignore facts that have been previously verified then, these vignettes, other than entertainment value, are of little merit."

Originally posted by Tuco.
Still one should always question and always look as you never know what might turn up.

I believe this observation goes without saying.

 

[sauer]

My Bulgarian Model B is WaA 251 marked, and imported by Cole Distributors in Kentucky. It was not purchased from SOG. It is a correct number for the Bulgarian SN range (23427),and properly proofed, but I remain in doubt of the WaA mark on any recently imported weapon, and of SOG in particular. SOG recently tried to sell some post-war P-38 holsters with (fake) codes and WaA's as original Nazi holsters. They are, perhaps, innocent dupes, but I doubt any knowlegable distributor would "unknowingly" offer fakes for sale as originals. Anyone care to comment?

 

[garfield]

quote:Originally posted by sauer

My Bulgarian Model B is WaA 251 marked, and imported by Cole Distributors in Kentucky. It was not purchased from SOG. It is a correct number for the Bulgarian SN range (23427),and properly proofed, but I remain in doubt of the WaA mark on any recently imported weapon, and of SOG in particular.

Doug: I believe that your pistol should have a 6 diget serial #? If the serial # falls within the the Bulgarian contract range then I follow the line of thinking that says that it should not be waffenamt stamped.

 

[sauer]

garfield: Absolutely right! My mistake, my model B is SN. 237427. My old eyes betrayed me. But I still question anything SOG offers. They hype their offerings without checking for corectness. I recently purchase what they said was a early eagle/C Sauer from them. I knew it had probably been Soviet refinished. SOG indicated that the gun was a correct eagle/C. When I got it, it was made up of parts from a early and a late production gun. They took it back, but my point is that beginning collectors believe what advertisers say, and then find out later how wrong they were. I knew what to look for, but they don't. We all make errors early on in our collections, but do we need sellers who don't check things out? They discourage potential collectors from joining us. New collectors don't do the research we do before buying. Reliable dealers are our best hope.