[Guest]

I have been looking through the postings with pics of Wimer era commercial Lugers, and I noticed something on mine that I can't see on the others. ( See pic) Just above the ser# there is a Crown/N. I could just make it out. Question is, is this a normal place for this mark? Or do other's have the same stamp? Also, is it a norm, to have a fireing pin marked with the ser# of the weapon? Hope you guys are not getting tired of my questions. LOL Again, I would like to thank you all for the fast reply's to my questions. With reguards Les

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[Dwight Gruber]

Les,

Crown/N is a firing proof. Upon completion a Luger was subject to two overpressure proof rounds, and upon passing inspection was stamped to designate the fact, on the receiver, bottom of the barrel, and breechblock in the position you picture.

Proofs vary over time--Heraldic Eagle, Crown/U, C/B C/U C/G, Eagle/letter are German exammples, other countries have their own proof markings. C/N was the German Commercial (civilian) power proof from 1911 through 1939.

--Dwight

 

[Guest]

Dwight, Thank you very much for the information. It came off a 29DWM Police rig. All matching ser# on my police stamped Luger with holster. With reguards Les

 

[jacobtowne]

To add my two cents:
As Dwight said, crown/N is a commercial, not military proof. It is seen, however, on some commercial handguns accepted into the German military as secondary or substitute standard sidearms. On these pistols, there will also be (usually) an ordnance acceptance stamp.
JT

 

[garfield]

quote:Originally posted by jacobtowne

To add my two cents:
It is seen, however, on some commercial handguns accepted into the German military as secondary or substitute standard sidearms.
JT

I am not certain what you mean by "secondary or substitute side arms"?

 

[Edward Tinker]

Garfield, I don't have my books at work, but in Jans book (I believe, but might be Goertz), secondary or subsitute are guns such as, Radoms, Hi-Power, C-96, etc., that are acceptable to use instead of the P38 or Luger.

Ed

 

[jacobtowne]

Anything that is not the standard issue military sidearm at the time. The German army in both world wars used dozens of non-standard handguns. In WWI the standard was the P-08, yet there were Sauers, Mausers, Behollas, Walthers, and many more taken into service. Same in WWII.
Almost all of these handguns were commercial models.
And Germany was not alone in this. During WWII the U.S. military purchased pistols and revolvers from High Standard, Colt, Smith & Wesson, H&R, and Iver Johnson.
Perhaps I was wrong to use the term substitute standard, since it applies to very few of these sidearms. The M1917 revolver used by the U.S. in WWI had a military designation, and so fits that term.
Better is the term secondary, since it covers everything.
JT

 

[Vlim]

Hi,

For completeness sake: The crown/N was revived after 1950 by the East-Germans (DDR) and can therefore be encountered on East-German proofed fire-arms as well.

 

[garfield]

jacobtowne:

I am certain that I read something into your initial statement that was not implied. Or do you feel that the 1908 and 1914 DWM Commercial C/N Lugers utilized by the Imperial German army, navy and Reichs Gendamerie fit into the catagory of secondary of substitute military side arms?

 

[lugerholsterrepair]

Bill, My idea of substitute sidearms would be commercial acquisitions in a small frame but sub 9MM cal. Particularly if used by Army units. Police would be another matter but the 9MM is a combat round. 1908 and 1914 DWM Commercial C/N Lugers utilized by the Imperial German army, navy and Reichs Gendamerie would not fit into my deffinition of secondary or substitute military side arms. Even in .30 cal the Luger would be a formadable combat pistol. An infantryman defending his life and position is hampered greatly by anything less than a robust pistol of adequate power. Jerry Burney

 

[Edward Tinker]

quote:Originally posted by garfield

quote:Originally posted by jacobtowne

To add my two cents:
It is seen, however, on some commercial handguns accepted into the German military as secondary or substitute standard sidearms.
JT

I am not certain what you mean by "secondary or substitute side arms"?

The terms used in Gortz , German Small Arms Markings, pg 129, Marking of Supplementary Pistols, 23 July 1918.
...Previously, auxiliary pistols were identified as army property by means of the acceptance commission’s stamp, usually located on the left...
...Steyr, acquired b y the Bavarian army in WW1 for official issue as auxiliary pistol.

I will look some more, but supplementary or auxiliary would appear to be close to the terms substitute or secondary, although not the match we were looking for...

Ed

 

[jacobtowne]

Good question about those Lugers, Garfield. I have no idea how you would classify them, since the model is in fact the standard issue.
The phrase in my books is `substitute standard.' It refers to a sidearm that is not issue, but is nevertheless given a military designation. More example are the Radoms, vz27s, and FN M1922s made during WWII under the occupation. All three were given German ordnance designations - Pistole 000(a) - and thus are called substitute standards.
A possible example of a commercial pistol accepted into service without a military designation would be the M1914 Mauser. Mine has an ordnance acceptance stamp on the slide, along with the commercial nitro proof, but no military designation, at least that I can find. I don't know what you would call this, other than commercial.
Charles Pate, in his book "US Handguns of WWII: The Secondary Pistols and Revolvers," chose to call them all secondary, which certainly seems to fit, but then so do supplementary and auxiliary, as WP suggests.
JT