[huggiebear]

A seldom found variation which a collector should be aware of and on the lookout for. Not many are known.

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[Mark]

Very interesting gun, please explain why this is so rare and why we should look for it. The rampent lion and 44 marking on the trigger guard is different but a better explanation of the photos would allow us to all be more informed.

Mark

 

[huggiebear]

Well Mark , just how many 44 dated CZ27's have you seen , or even heard about ? Myself, I hadn't even heard of a 44 date example till a couple of years ago and I have been in this collection arena for over 37 years. I believe that just three serial numbers are known. 41 dated CZ's are known and a few are recorded, 42's have scores of serial's recorded, but 43's and 44's are just about unheard of. You must understand the reason for and the purpose behind these or any commercials in this time frame , for that matter. Simply put, they are rejected military weapons. If it didn't meet Wehrmacht specifications it was a reject and subject to Police usage. If the Police did not need or want these weapons , they became commercials. Nothing was thrown out or away and as the war pressures increased, the standards were lowered so not as many commercials were produced in the more trying times or what we usually associate with the later years. The CZ27 was engineered to begin with to be put on the mass production scale so rejects of this particular weapon will be few but with the lowering of production quality and specifications [except for criticial functioning points] , the number of rejects drop drastically. They are rare and the numbers bear this out !!

 

[Greg G]

Huggie,
Great rig! As usual. Beautiful holster. Would you say the 43 dated ones are more likely to be found than the 44 dates?

 

[bohemian]

John, talk about such an unappreciated and dreadful specimen. I should be sending you my address to relieve you of your loathsome burden.

Mark, Like John has said there are three known serial numbers from 44 dated Commercial pistols. These are the only known 44 dated Cz-27’s as there are no 44 Eagle K pistols. The only other 44 dated Cz-27 pistol I am aware of has been stamped by the user after production. In my serial number data I only have 3 serial numbers from 43 dated commercial pistols, but then again I have 21 43 Eagle K serial numbers. So in Comparison of the occurrences of the commercial dated pistols the 43 is as difficult to find as the 44.

I do not know if I believe Johns explanation of the reason for the commercial pistols as being production rejects, but then again I have no evidence to refute it either. The 44 dated serial numbers are scattered through out the serial number ranges, but on the other hand the 43 dated commercial guns are only found on the low end and the high end of the 43 dated guns. All the 43 Eagle K guns are between the 43 dated commercial serial numbers. When one charts out the production numbers that are given in Bergers book, all the commercial serial numbers fall within the numbers given for the yearly production. All except the 44 dated serial numbers. Which throw a big wrench into the published production numbers. If I charted the lowest 44 dated serial number on the curve it is way below the start of production for 1944. In fact if the lowest serial numbered 44 dated commercial was the first gun produced in 1944 then the production chart shows that the production of Cz-27s was constant through out 1942 and 1943 with a substantial increase in production in 1944. So this tells me that the 44 dated pistols were actually made in 43 and held for almost 6 months prior to being dated and sold as commercial pistol or there really was a major ramp up in production starting in January 44.

Comments welcomed

Robert

 

[Greg G]

Robert,
I ran across a 43 commercial at a gun show today. The commerical proof with the number 43 under it is on the right-side trigger guard. It has the commercial proof on the barrel. It does not have a police E/K stamp on it. The left-side trigger guard is blank. The serial number is 214490. Does this fit in with the others you have serial numbers on? The pistol is in nice condition, not as nice as Huggie's, unchipped grips, etc., except that some moron scratched an "X" in the finish in the right-side frame right above the grips. The price is $395 with holster. Does this sound like something I ought to pick up?

 

[huggiebear]

Yes, and then send it to me.

 

[Greg G]

huggie,
You added your post while I was trying to edit mine. Those 2 megabytes of pics you put on are playing hell with my crappy dial-up connection. The Commercial proof over 43 is on the right side trigger guard and the left-side is blank. The fact that is does not have the E/K stamp was a disappointment to the dealer and is why he is asking for relatively low price. Does it still sound like a keeper? The pistol is pretty decent condition-wise. The holster is unmarked but not the standard pattern for a CZ 27.

 

[huggiebear]

I have a 44 dated CZ27 but have never seen nor had the opportunity to acquire a 43 dated one so that should answer your question. Buy the first one, then be selective as all get out when the second one comes around, if ever. A bird in the hand......

 

[mrfarb]

Very interesting- I am interested in the holster. How do you tell a commercial holster from military? Obviously it would be unmarked. My main concern is one I have. It is a late war pattern pebble leather, but is unmarked. How do you tell it it is post war or commercial anyway? I have seen holsters exactly like this one marked with german codes:

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[huggiebear]

You are correct when stating that there are post war examples like this one which no marks are present. It is not as easy viewing this holster in pictures form rather than having it in hand but from my observations , I would be inclined to say that your holster could very well be post war Czech. I say that because of the lack of extentive back stitching on the stress areas. This is my only method of determining post war from occupied versions. When new , the Czech holsters normally have a large ink stamp on the inside of flap. Are there any remains of ink stampings on the inside flap that you can see ? Yes, again there are similar German versions which have the manufacturer's code metal die stamped on the belt loop which may or may not have a waffenamt proofmark. With the waffenamt proof it would be military and without the waffenamt proof it would be considered a commercial. The difficultly comes from the fact that the same people, at the same firm, using similar materials, are using the same techniques when working for the Czechs as they did when working for the Germans. Only minor changes were incorporated when making these new holsters for the Czech Government.

 

[Greg G]

huggiebear,
I called the dealer and arranged to buy the pistol. If I can get some decent pics with my camera, I will post them if anyone is interested. Thanks for your counsel. Had you not created this topic, I would have passed the pistol by.

 

[Orv Reichert]

Greg...I will bet that the 'X' you observed is, in fact, a deletion of a previously stamped WaA stamp?

Take a good look at it under a 10X glass and let us know?

Orv

Orvel L. Reichert
P O Box 67
Vader WA 98593-0067
360-245-3492
360-245-3702 Fax
360-520-6520 Cel
[email protected]

quote........ "I'm living so far beyond my income that we may almost be said to be living apart." - e e cummings (1894-1962)

 

[Greg G]

Orv,
I hadn't thought about that. I am going to go pick up the pistol on Wed. after work so I won't see it until then. I have a 10x glass so I will look it over. Its a pretty big and sloppy "X" that someone scratched on it but it is in the area the WaA stamp would be. If this is the case, who do you suppose would have done it? The "X" was scratched after the gun was blued, it is not under the finish.

 

[Orv Reichert]

It is just that things like that are not done just to dazzle American collectors! It had a meaning or reason at the time.

I would suspect the previously accepted frame was diverted, for some reason, to the commercial line? Perhaps it failed during assembly?...who knows?...the same is true of the early Mod HP [commercial] Walthers that show up with a partial or faint E/359 on the frame?

Orv

Orvel L. Reichert
P O Box 67
Vader WA 98593-0067
360-245-3492
360-245-3702 Fax
360-520-6520 Cel
[email protected]

quote........ "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." - Plato

 

[Greg G]

Orv,
I got the pistol home and looked it over. The pistol is in better condition than I remembered. It has had hardly any use. The dark parkerized finish is very nice and the strawed parts look very good. Very little wear. No chips on the grips. The "X" on the right side frame above the grip appears to be under the parkerized finish, not in it. I used a 10x glass from many angles with different lighting and can't see any remnants of a WaA76 stamp. The barrel has the commercial proof on the barrel hood like huggiebear's but it also has a partially ground off WaA76 stamp on the bottom of the barrel up close to the 3 lugs. Looks like a waA16 now with a little star where the eagle was. The top of the slide has the BOHMISCHE legend with the serial number 214490. There is no serial number on the frame, unless it is under the grips. As I mentioned earlier on, it has the commercial proof over 43 on the right side trigger guard and the left side trigger guard is blank. I will try to take some pictures this weekend and post them. If I can't get decent pictures with my camera, I might be able to talk Leon DeSpain into taking some for me. He is a fellow club member.