Jan C. Still Lugerforums banner

41 - 60 of 90 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
671 Posts
I have a holster marked exactly as the one you picture. The DH mark is the only mark I am able to find on the holster. My holster is in similar condition, minus the modification to the closure strap. A DH marked Luger came in the holster. The Luger is a rework as discussed in previous posts.
Tom
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,640 Posts
Short update, a friend of mine approached me with a holster collection for sale .. seems I was lucky as this one was among them. I usually don't collect holsters, but they two match each other, both not being of mint condition.
Holsters like this are made by EGER & LINDE SELIGENTAL in the 1930 and used by tank crews. May be you will find thr marker stamp inside the inner liner...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
52 Posts
Discussion Starter #45
Holsters like this are made by EGER & LINDE SELIGENTAL in the 1930 and used by tank crews. May be you will find thr marker stamp inside the inner liner...
Not being a holster guy at all, would you possibly have a sample picture of what it looks like to see if I can find it?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
52 Posts
Discussion Starter #48
I did a bit additional research on this forum on Deaths Head marked pistols. A total of four threads (plus this one) show various Lugers with Deaths Head. They all share specific details:
1. Deaths Head Stamp with Lazy S
2. Nitro Proof from Suhl, pre 1942 period
3. From what I can make out all of them have replacement barrels (hence the re-proof), but of the same length
4. Most have force-matched parts/scrubbed and re-matched serials
5. They are not specific to a particular manufacturer nor model
6. These guns have various dates on them, but none carries the 1920 date
7. Most appear re-finished. Therefore markings aren't that deep - aside of proof and Deaths Head stampings

Sources:
Gun 2867: https://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?118619-Deaths-Head-Luger-08&p=914507#post914507
Gun 4087: https://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?112479-opinions-on-1917-deaths-head&p=867801#post867801
Gun 1147 and 2210: https://luger.gunboards.com/showthr...s-with-Death-Head-marking&p=583778#post583778
Gun 501: https://luger.gunboards.com/showthr...s-with-Death-Head-marking&p=586210#post586210
Gun 2311: https://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?41931-Totenkopf-death-head-1916&p=285828#post285828
Gun 4984: https://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?42814-1917-DWM-with-Deaths-Head&p=293742#post293742

Especially the last one is important, since it is a vet bringback and untouched and therefore without any doubt, plus it even has matching numbers magazine. This would exclude this particular gun from being what many in this forum here had believed, to be a WWI unit marking (had it been, the Deaths Head would had needed to be as filed flat during refinish as the rest. And the proof is from a much later period, hence it could not be from WWI).

For me it therefore would become quite obvious that the SS in one single arsenal reworked Luger pistols of various models. As with the Gew98 to K98k conversions outcarried by the SS these were mainly performed on guns with issues/damages. This is proofed by the fact that they have replacement barrels, as well as the fact that they all share in common the commercial proof from Suhl. The 1920 stamp on guns was the property stamp of the Reichswehr to make it obvious the gun belongs to the Reichswehr, hence I would explain why some guns have scrubbed barrels whereas with most the date is still present, because otherwise the Reichswehr could had claimed ownership of these guns. These guns do seem to follow a certain pattern and share so many details with the SS rifle reworks.

Comments on this are highly welcome and would appreciate if those that had joined this thread already at the beginning let me know what they think.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,762 Posts
I fail to see how the last luger is more important, or any different from other DHs reported. Being a vet bringback means little, it may be true or not; it could have
been reblued stateside or anywhere it landed in the last years.
Not sure why you say the DH would have been filed flat? maybe you can explain why if would have been ?
It certainly is not necessary to do anything to the DH to refinish the pistol.

Most all the DH lugers discussed have the C/N proof of Suhl, from the 1920-30s period.

The 1920 ownership stamp was applied to the luger chamber, not the barrel- so would have no relation to a replaced barrel.
I agree, none of the DH lugers I've seen have had a 1920 PS(property stamp) applied, which favors the theory of "surplus" pistols reworked or assembled from parts by several(or many) different commercial entities for sale and proofed in Suhl.

1920 PS lugers would have been in government stocks and not available.

Seems you have just restated your initial position that these are "SS" reworked pistols.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,999 Posts
In the 1950s and 1960s this category of Luger pistols was bottom of the barrel material that hardly had a resale value. That is why an entrepreneural gun smith decided to make them 'more collectable' by adding the DH markings. It's been researched by a couple of German gun magazine journalists. They spoke to the former gunsmith's apprentice who applied the markings.

That is the reason why it is almost impossible to validate / authenticate the DH lugers. Most, if not all, are 60 year old fakes. So even the patina is about right on them.

About gun 4984: there is no direct proof that the vet brought that gun home. The statement from his children is not enough. Many vets who brought home guns after WW2 traded, sold their guns for various reasons, got a bit of remorse and bought back replacement ' trophies' in later years. So, in this case, the vet may have purchased the P08 in the 1960s and then presented it proudly to his kids as the 'dead officer's P08', as many others also did.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
52 Posts
Discussion Starter #51

·
Registered
Joined
·
77 Posts
Good for you DavefromSheffield for keeping hope alive, god love you brother. You have way more patience than me.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
52 Posts
Discussion Starter #53
Bought a SSZZA4 (SS Zentralzeugamt 4) marked K98k rifle yesterday and also bought the holster it came with. I have not given up hope that maybe the pistol to it is also around. For reference in here also pictures of the holster. It is way better than my previous one. Note it is brown leather that was tinted black, as the other one.

Secondly, borrowed from another thread in here also two WWII pictures showing SS members with these Deaths Head marked holsters.

DH-Holster_01.jpg DH-Holster_02.jpg DH-Holster_03.jpg DH-Holster_04.jpg Panzerpionier+der+3.+SS-+Div.+Totenkopf.jpg SS Feldgendarmerie DH Holster1.jpg SS Feldgendarmerie DH Holster2.jpg SS Feldgendarmerie DH Holster3.jpg TK1.jpg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
315 Posts
Hi DaveFromSheffield!

With the best regards to Austria...

Perhaps these pics could help a little bit...?

You know that rifle converted from a G98 to a K98k...
Worse, worse, worse condition but documented original...

Tom
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
52 Posts
Discussion Starter #55
Thank you - I've seen this rifle having been put up for auction myself. In my own collection I have several Deaths Head marked K98k rifles myself (maybe half a dozen?) that originate from the SS. For what it's worth, the K98k rifle I got with the holster I pictured came with a SSZZA4 marked rifle. The all matching numbers rifle is with a Deathshead and K over it stamped on the heel. Two pictures of it attached, showing the SSZZA4 stamp and the Deathshead K on the stock:
sszza4_04.jpg sszza4_11.jpg

To give some more reference on the Luger what we originally were talking upon I wanted to share another picture (and a detail of the same picture) that got posted on another forum. It was originally credited to the Wehrmacht-Awards forum and described
Heimwehr Danzig man after integration into the Totenkopf division. Picture probably dates to 1940/1941
Holster1.jpg Holster2.jpg

User Ron Wood in this post here Deaths Head Luger 08 suggests the Deaths Head would be used on the Luger pistol because it was used on the badge of a flame thrower unit plus they used the Deaths Head on a car. Now we have a total of THREE pictures showing SS members with the exact same Deaths Head stamped on a Luger holster in exactly the same location using exactly the same Deaths Head. So using the logic (pictures with DH being used) Ron Wood uses to assign the pistol to a certain unit, wouldn't it be more likely that the Deaths Head stamped Luger pistol would be stored in a Deaths Head stamped holster by a person who also has Deaths Head on his collar patch, rather than people using the Deaths Head on their belt and their car and possibly also on their pistol? (at this point: sorry Ron I picked out exactly your post. This is nothing directed against your person, it was basically just the first post I came upon which formed a theory based upon pictures - could had been anyone else who did the same somewhere else).

Yes, this still is not call a proof. But on the opposite, this gives us the same "proof" which was so far used to the theories which were thought to be the most likely ones, using period pictures to possibly assign to certain units. Hence at least for me this means it is as likely as any other theory.

At the beginning I received a lot of replies. It became quite silent in here since then. Would appreciate the thoughts and input of other members in here.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,999 Posts
In my opinion any DH stamped Luger is and will remain a Luger with a post war applied marking in order to boost it's value.

A stamp on a holster is not the same as a stamp on a Luger.

There is not a shred of real evidence that the SS ever reworked Lugers.

There is, however, the statement of a gunsmith's apprentice in Europe who said he applied them on low value export Lugers many years ago.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
52 Posts
Discussion Starter #57
Vlim, thank you for your input. So in your opinion ALL Deaths Head Luger pistols are non original? I fully concur with you that many pistols were post WWII stamped to enhace their value, with whatever stamp was desired. But to me this does not mean that ALL Deaths Head stamped Luger pistols need to be stamped post WWII.

Have you taken in account that exactly the same stamp as on the Luger pistols can also be found on K98k rifles which originate from the SS (referring now to the "Lazy S" Deaths Head), plus both the K98k rifles as well as most Luger pistols which carry this stamp also have commercial Suhl firing proof stamps on them from the same period? Of course, it would not outrule someone could use the stamp from the K98k rifles to also use on Luger pistols, but what are the chances if just "enhacing" for the export market that he only picks those which have the same proof as the K98k rifles and therefore would possibly pick less than 1% of the total ones available to apply this stamp?

Secondly, where would the SS get Luger pistols from, if they have no access to newly produced weapons and can only get "scrap" guns which are too bad for the Army and in need for heavy repair/overhaul?
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,999 Posts
Frankly, not a single argument except period documentation will let me change my opinion on these.

Trying to validate them without original documentation is a pointless exercise.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
77 Posts
Frankly, not a single argument except period documentation will let me change my opinion on these.

Trying to validate them without original documentation is a pointless exercise.
Interesting. I have to ask, as an author myself (based one your tagline you are), did you use the same standard for the books that you co-authored? Also, do you feel Jan Still used that standard to write his books? Are collector observations and data collection irrelevant in your books? If so, I assume that you view the observations of say, Krieghoff Lugers by collectors over the years irrelevant unless they also have supporting documentation?

I say that because I already know that answer. The answer is no, the majority of what is known about WW2 German arms is based on serial data collection, observations by collectors, and a sprinkling of period documentation. I'm assuming you have documents from the gunsmiths apprentice that stamped deathsheads on low value lugers since that is a point you brought up. I'd be interested if you posted those so we could see the serial numbers/makes of the guns he stamped.
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
3,999 Posts
did you use the same standard for the books that you co-authored?
Yes. The reason we did our books was because we had direct access to original factory documents and with those involved in the entire process.

If I were you, I would contact the editors of Deutsches Waffenjournal (DWJ). Some of their staff managed to locate and interview the man who worked as a gunsmith's apprentice applying the DH markings. The man requested his identity to remain secret. But perhaps DWJ can provide you with more details.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Doubs
41 - 60 of 90 Posts
Top