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Good morning! I have a Dreyse 1907 that is a WWII bringback. S/N is 225655. No markings on either the front or rear straps. It has some markings that I've been unable to identify. On the left side, over the bottom proof mark, it's stamped, "VP 27". Also on the left, just to the right of the "Dreyse" inscription, it's marked with an "S" followed by what appears to be an asterisk, then the number 4. Below the asterisk is the number 26.

Any assistance is appreciated, thanks!

Mark
 

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Discussion Starter #242
Good morning! I have a Dreyse 1907 that is a WWII bringback. S/N is 225655. No markings on either the front or rear straps. It has some markings that I've been unable to identify. On the left side, over the bottom proof mark, it's stamped, "VP 27". Also on the left, just to the right of the "Dreyse" inscription, it's marked with an "S" followed by what appears to be an asterisk, then the number 4. Below the asterisk is the number 26.

Any assistance is appreciated, thanks!

Mark
Hi Mark! Welcome to the forum! It sounds like you have a very cool and desirable Czechoslovakian military proofed Dreyse 1907. I would hazard a guess that the VP 27 is a unit marking, meaning that the gun was issued to unit VP 27 in the Czech military. With photos, I could confirm this. The S*4 is also a Czech proof mark, although I will be honest in that I do not know what it means. The number 26 is likely the year the firearm was proofed in Czechoslovakia, 1926. If you wouldn't mind posting some photos, I could see if the finish is original. If you look at the database, there are several Czech examples around yours. Take a look at post 104 and 105 in this thread for some more information.
 

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Discussion Starter #244
I have serial 35903, which I believe resolves to 1913. Crown/N as expected, no other marks on the exterior. Magazine appears original.
Images: https://photos.app.goo.gl/wZfhs983yEvV7xKc7
Very nice example! The magazine is indeed original. I would say that your example was produced sometime between late 1913 and early 1914. Great condition, congrats!
 

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I am starting a Dreyse 1907 database and would love to catalog variations, serial numbers, conditions, and any unique marks.

So please state the serial number, variation (found here: 1907 Dreyse *), finish (original, reblued, nickel, etc), grips (wood, horn etc), and any unique markings (Military acceptance, Austrian proofs, Unit markings etc), and any comments such as mismatch, replacement parts etc. Pictures are always welcome! If you do not want to post your info, please PM me and your ID will be confidential. Thanks!

*The article goes in order of 1-9, except I don't count the "Sideplate screw behind trigger no longer extends all the way through to the right side" as a variation, so ignore that when counting.

Currently I have 404 Dreyse's documented.

For approximate dating of your Dreyse, see the following:

For pre-war Dreyse's, use the following equation: X (SN of your gun) divide by 700 (suspected units per month produced), take the answer to that equation (which is number of months) and add that number of months to 1909. This will give you a rough estimate of when your pre-war gun was produced, +/- 6 months. Example:
SN 18000/700=~26. So 26 months= 2 years 2 months+1909= Feb. of 1911, +/- 6 months.

At approximately 54XXX was the transition from 1915 to 1916

Between 140XXX and 150XXX was the transition from 1916 to 1917

Approximately 200XXX was when the armistice was signed.

I still need to do calculations to find the equation to estimate wartime and post-war production dates.

Here's the percentage of number of documented variations relative to total documented pieces:

NOTE pistols with "3? 4?" or similar are not counted in the following, so percentage is X out of 383 pistols

NOTE pistols marked "2/3" or similar are hybrid variation guns. They show features of both variations listed. Hybrid guns are not calculated either.

1: Approx. 02.35% (9)
2: Approx. 01.31% (5)
3: Approx. 09.40% (36)
4: Approx. 21.41% (82)
5: Approx. 40.21% (154)
6: Approx. 04.18% (16)
7: Approx. 06.27% (24)
8: Approx. 05.22% (20)
9: Approx. 08.09% (31)

NOTE I will continue to update these figures.


MIG= Made in Germany or just "Germany"; MM=Matching Magazine(s); MH=Matching Holster; PM=Police Marked; GMA=German Military Accepted; NF=Non-Factory

Also I must give credit to Don Maus who gave me A LOT (almost triple what I had) of data for the Dreyse's. Thanks Don!

*Due to technical difficulties with the forum, I could not update the data table via this post. Thankfully, EdD was kind enough to put it all into an excel spreadsheet which I will continue to update via the link below. Thank you so much Ed!

Follow this link for the spreadsheet: Dreyse Database

Here's my Dryse 1907 that my Dad brought back from WW II. I think it's an early 1st variant serial # 19708 .
I searched your Data Base and didn't find a similar one with "K.S. Gend. 366."
I did some research and I think that it was used by the Royal Saxon Army.
Maker's mark of N with a crown above, Inscription:
Rheinische Metallwaaren Machiinefabrik -- Abt. Sommerda
I did a complete spring replacement, and she shoots great.
I attached a few pix, but had trouble photographing a close ups.
Any additional information on this pistol, and a general idea of value will be appreciated.
Thanks, Steelbreeze.
IMG_0806.JPG
IMG_0803.JPG
IMG_0802.JPG
IMG_0804.JPG
IMG_0805.JPG
IMG_0806.JPG
IMG_0803.JPG
IMG_0802.JPG
IMG_0804.JPG
IMG_0805.JPG
 

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"K.S. Gend." translates to "Royal Saxon Gendarmerie" (ie, police not military). Fantastic heirloom, congratulations !! A picture of the top of the slide would show whether your's might be the "flat top" variety (but I suspect it's not). Did your Dad explain the circumstances of this gun's capture?
 

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You are correct about the police and not the Army. My bad typo. It is not a "flat top". I have seen other K.S. Gend in the data base but I am curious as to the meaning of the 366. Is that another "serial" number specifically for the Royal Saxon Gendarmerie? I wonder how many they had made just for them, and does that make it more collectible ?
I never got the full story of the capture, as he passed away before my Mom gave it to me later on. All I know is that he was in the Infantry in Germany.
Thanks for the reply nieuport.
 

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Yes, the "366" is the pistol's inventory number among other K.S. Gendarmerie weapons.
 

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Discussion Starter #249
Very nice example, steelbreeze! Nieuport is completely correct with the information that he provided. Your dad brought home an excellent piece! Congrats, and thank you for sharing!

The K.S. marking does indeed make it more collectible. I suspect yours is part of a second contract for the Royal Saxon Gendarmerie by Dreyse, as some of these later pistols (in the cluster of the late 19XXX range) have lower inventory numbers than the earlier K.S. flat top pistols. I would think that this second contract was to replace either pistols lost/damaged/etc from the first contract, or to replace some of their older potentially non-Dreyse pistols, or a mix of both of these options. I have a question for you, is there any markings or numbering on the magazine? Some of the K.S. pistols that I have recorded have matching magazines and I am curious if yours is.

One last note that I tell everyone who considers shooting these pistols-the bolt heads break surprisingly easy. I know a gentleman who makes new bolt heads and says he cannot keep them in stock, there is such a demand for them. I personally have witnessed a bolt head break in half in one. If you are going to shoot the pistol fairly often, I highly recommend procuring a new bolt head for it, as the originals are numbered to the pistol, and should it break, would diminish the value. It is also a potential safety issue. I have several people waiting to hear from me regarding if the gentleman is making more bolt heads, but I have yet to hear back from him.

Great heirloom, and once more, thank you for sharing!
 

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Doug, thanks for posting the photo!

Ed, as far as I know, no other Wachdienst marked pistols have shown up.

In general, while the marking looks legitimate to me, a question keeps clawing at my mind; why, in the final months of the war, would the Germans take the time to professionally (IMHO) mark a pistol to a "neighborhood watch" type unit?
I am taking this up again. The Wiki article seems to rely on two references, one of which seems sort of dodgy to me. I think that this organization pre dates the Nazis. I posted a picture elsewhere asking for an ID of a uniform that has the Wachdienst patch on it, a uniform that smacks of Wiemar to me. Anyway, we shall see.
 

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Discussion Starter #251
Ed, I hope you can find some substantial information on the subject, I am very interested to know what you find out!

Another note, Wikipedia is way off on their information on the Dreyse 1907, so I thought I would CC a post I made on the main forums in response to Wiki's information...

If I may correct Wikipedia as I maintain the Dreyse Database...

I wouldn't say that the 1907 was produced for a limited amount of time, it very well may have been produced for around 15 years with just over a quarter million examples made. The Austrians made very limited use of the 1907, rather it was the German military and police who procured the vast majority of them, with 80-100 thousand being procured by the Imperial German military in WWI and the Dreyse being a favorite of German police and other government departments before, during, and after WWI, even through the 30s. Austrian-Hungarian examples are exceptionally rare in either military accepted or commercial form, but do exist. Indeed the Czechs did purchase some 1907s, but to say they were removed from service by 1923 would be incorrect, as there are examples having been accepted by the Czech military in 1926. Of the roughly quarter million produced, only around 25-30 thousand were produced for commercial, export, and/or civilian sales, with most of those being produced at the very beginning of production, and the very end. I wouldn't be surprised if some of them were used by Volks-units, but I would suspect that many came from other sources. I could go on and on, but that is a nice synopsis of the Dreyse 1907's use.
 

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A poster on the Historia forum has one of the references, the autobiography of a German soldier. He stated that the reference to the unit was in the translators preface!! In other words an unsourced ...contention. I bought the WW2 encyclopedia (the other reference) to see the nature of the reference in there. I will follow up when I get it.

It seems to me that someone made a good faith effort to add "something" to Wiki on the subject. Probably hoping that others would flesh it out and fix any errors. The problem is that this faulty entry became the or rather THE reference on the subject. As you can see with a search, it has been lifted, often word for word, and reproduced far and wide. And the references serve as references thus adding credibility.
 

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I took a look at the data base in terms of pattern of the reported examples out there.
638877

What you are looking at is a histogram of the number of serial numbers in the data base dropped into buckets that are defined by a range of serials

So the first bucket contains all the serials in the DB that are between 0 and 20000. Those serials are a bit less than 0.4% of the 20000 total that is possible. The same goes for the serials that were reported between 20000 and 40000.

The thing that I didn't expect was the fall off in cases between serial 60000 and 200000. This assumes, of course, that there were no gaps in production and that of the highest serial is ~260000 that there were, in fact ~260,000 of these critters made. Were there? IDK.

Speculation is welcome.
 

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IMHO total made would be close to 250,000 (ie, 10,000 fewer)
 

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Discussion Starter #255
My speculation, which could be overly simple, is that around 50,000 was early 1916, the middle of WW1. The vast majority of examples from 100,000 to 200,000 are Imperial German military accepted, making me assume that the lack of examples in that range is due to attrition from the war. There is a stark lack of examples from 60,000 to about 90,000 which I cannot account for or speculate on. The uptick in reported examples after roughly 200,000 I believe is due to the end of the war and German government organizations and the Czech government purchasing many examples within the ~200,000-230,000 range and from 230,000-250,000 appears to be largely commercial, export, production. In total, with some of the oddities noted in the database, I estimate that total 1907 model production is around 255,000.

A new theory that I have, is that because there are no confirmed 1907s reported with a SN higher than 250,000, except 250285a, that new model (Neu Modell Rheinmetall) numbering began at 250,000 (as has been common theory), but 1907 production continued for a short while, potentially from remaining parts stockpiles (we know 250285a is not from earlier due to the variation and markings), in a parallel SN sequence, but adding the "a" suffix to differentiate the models in factory record/inventory.
 

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Is there any data/evidence linking production to dates?

Also ... could you put the date that the DB was updated somewhere near the top. Thanks
 

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Noticed an oddity in the DB. SN 241495 has a K.PR.Z.V. inventory number of 2483. That is wildly out of sequence. It should be a 5 digit serial. Could you check?
 

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Discussion Starter #258
Is there any data/evidence linking production to dates?

Also ... could you put the date that the DB was updated somewhere near the top. Thanks

Noticed an oddity in the DB. SN 241495 has a K.PR.Z.V. inventory number of 2483. That is wildly out of sequence. It should be a 5 digit serial. Could you check?
Hi Ed, updated the database this morning. Added last date of revision at the top of the database itself, as requested. I agree that 241495 is an oddity. I have moved it under "unusual examples". Unfortunately, it appears that the information regarding 241495 is incomplete, as evidenced by not knowing the finish or grip status, this could be for a variety of reasons, and unfortunately I cannot change any of the reported information until I receive more information regarding that piece. It very well could be a 5 digit serial, but I can't say with certainty.

So far the most concrete (no speculation at all) production dating information that I have is as follows:

2661 produced in 1909

54XXX is early 1916

Between 140XXX-150XXX is early 1917

177XXX is still 1917

200XXX is 1918

Unfortunately my knowledge of Czech proofing needs some brushing up, but I believe that the following is likely to be correct; however, the gap needs closed.

225XXX-230XXX is somewhere between 1922-1926.

I hope this helps! I should note that I do need to revise the first post of this thread at some point.
 

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You could put the link to the DB in your sig.
 

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My speculation, which could be overly simple, is that around 50,000 was early 1916, the middle of WW1. The vast majority of examples from 100,000 to 200,000 are Imperial German military accepted, making me assume that the lack of examples in that range is due to attrition from the war. There is a stark lack of examples from 60,000 to about 90,000 which I cannot account for or speculate on. The uptick in reported examples after roughly 200,000 I believe is due to the end of the war and German government organizations and the Czech government purchasing many examples within the ~200,000-230,000 range and from 230,000-250,000 appears to be largely commercial, export, production. In total, with some of the oddities noted in the database, I estimate that total 1907 model production is around 255,000.

A new theory that I have, is that because there are no confirmed 1907s reported with a SN higher than 250,000, except 250285a, that new model (Neu Modell Rheinmetall) numbering began at 250,000 (as has been common theory), but 1907 production continued for a short while, potentially from remaining parts stockpiles (we know 250285a is not from earlier due to the variation and markings), in a parallel SN sequence, but adding the "a" suffix to differentiate the models in factory record/inventory.
Hmmmm ...
Thing is that after Versailles Germany could not produce handguns in 9mm. The Dreyse was always .32 so they were well positioned to export from 1919 forward.
Do we know when they went out of business?
 
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