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Discussion Starter #261
Hmmmm ...
Thing is that after Versailles Germany could not produce handguns in 9mm. The Dreyse was always .32 so they were well positioned to export from 1919 forward.
Do we know when they went out of business?
This is pure speculation, but I would hazard a guess of the early 30's. Assuming 230XXX was 1926, and they made about 20k after that, plus the Neu Modell, which as well all know was made in limited quantities, I would say that the worldwide economic downturn in the late 20s-30s likely claimed Dreyse/Rheinmetall as one of its victims.
 

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We might come up with some rationale for ascribing years to serials. If we take your fixed data points and make a few heroic assumptions we might conjure up some thing that is not terribly unreasonable.
So, let us make the following assumptions.
1- the Serials that you found to be date related are "true" and we shall assume that they occurred on the last day of the year preceding.
2- that there are no big gaps in serialization
3- that the years leading up to the production spike associated wtih WW1 each had the same production numbers
4- similarly that the annual production post WW1 up to the end of production was flat.
Not crazy and fairly conservative.
Those assumptions yield this
638928

Cume production = the last serial number produced for that year. If we can obtain more data the numbers can be adjusted to conform to that data.

Thoughts?
 

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Discussion Starter #263
Overall, I think your overview is pretty solid. There are a couple tweaks I would make; however, I would increase production some in 1914, as production would have been ramping up already to meet the demands of wartime production. Additionally, I would increase production from 1919-1922 so that 225XXX was produced by the end of 1922, and then significantly taper off production, ending at a reasonable time of 1929 or 1930
 

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638945

Again, not crazy. And we can update if real data comes in. Actually, having a straw man like this might generate better data.
 

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Discussion Starter #265
Ed, fantastic! I think that is an excellent representation of production figures based on what we know. The one issue that I am having trouble wrapping my head around, is that we know production went into the 250XXX range. All production figures look good to me until 1926. After 1926, the logical production is represented in your chart, yet we know that 16000 more were produced. This leads me to ask a couple questions. First, we know that the Czech contract was initiated in 1922, but there are 1926 proofed examples at the beginning and end of the 225XXX-230XXX range. How do we explain this? One option is that the entire order was produced in 1922, and due to the supposed incidents in the Czech military with the Dreyse, some were reinspected and proofed in 1926? Let's say that 230XXX was made by the end of 1922, and that production was 2500/year until 1930; this would lead to an agreement between the known total production numbers and estimated year for the end of production. Thoughts?
 

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First, we know that the Czech contract was initiated in 1922, but there are 1926 proofed examples at the beginning and end of the 225XXX-230XXX range. How do we explain this? One option is that the entire order was produced in 1922, and due to the supposed incidents in the Czech military with the Dreyse, some were reinspected and proofed in 1926? Let's say that 230XXX was made by the end of 1922, and that production was 2500/year until 1930; this would lead to an agreement between the known total production numbers and estimated year for the end of production. Thoughts?
Steve, I like your "option one" explanation highlighted/underlined above. My reasoning is based on comments made by two Czech-and-Slovak firearms historians. Jan Balcar wrote that the Czech government in 1922 bought 4,797 Dreyse 1907's for its army. Andy Blaz told me that my Dreyse s/n 230502 (1922-dated government acceptance mark RCS 22) was transferred in 1926 to the Hradec Kralove divisional depot (thus the secondary marking "S-Lion-4 / 26") from its original east Slovakia infantry regiment (acceptance mark 32P193).
 

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Discussion Starter #267
Steve, I like your "option one" explanation highlighted/underlined above. My reasoning is based on comments made by two Czech-and-Slovak firearms historians. Jan Balcar wrote that the Czech government in 1922 bought 4,797 Dreyse 1907's for its army. Andy Blaz told me that my Dreyse s/n 230502 (1922-dated government acceptance mark RCS 22) was transferred in 1926 to the Hradec Kralove divisional depot (thus the secondary marking "S-Lion-4 / 26") from its original east Slovakia infantry regiment (acceptance mark 32P193).
Doug, terrific! That is exactly the missing piece that we needed! I believe with your help, we can now say that 230XXX was produced by the end of 1922, and that 2500 produced per year after 1922 until 1930 would be a good fit.

Would you perhaps be willing to provide the excerpt from Balcar regarding the Czech Dreyse contract? Does he happen to mention any serial numbers or ranges?
 

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This is what the foregoing implies
638959
 

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Discussion Starter #269
Ed, I think that is very good! The only adjustment I would make is now that we know that 230XXX is positively made in 1922, to adjust the cume production and per year production appropriately.
 

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Steve in reply to your request for my authorities:

Jan Balcar wrote that the Czech government in 1922 bought 4,797 Dreyse 1907's for its army.
............ these statements were posted on this forum <here>

Andy Blaz told me that my Dreyse s/n 230502 (1922-dated government acceptance mark RCS 22) was transferred in 1926 to the Hradec Kralove divisional depot (thus the secondary marking "S-Lion-4 / 26") from its original east Slovakia infantry regiment (acceptance mark 32P193).
............ these statements were included in the text of an e-mail to me from Andy
 

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Discussion Starter #271
Doug, much obliged! Thanks!
 

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638966
638967
 

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Discussion Starter #273
Ed, looks fantastic! Exactly what the data currently suggests. Would you mind if I put that chart on the first post? Thanks!
 

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Please do. And if more comes in we can adjust as needed.
 

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So according to these production scenarios, the Dreyse 1907 was being produced in the 1920s concurrently with the Neue Rheinmetall pistol? I guess that is plausible.
 

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So according to these production scenarios, the Dreyse 1907 was being produced in the 1920s concurrently with the Neue Rheinmetall pistol? I guess that is plausible.
But at low low levels. It reminds me a bit of the Franz Stock company.
 

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So the Neue Modell Rheinmetall came and went and the 1907 stayed in production? How do the serial number range and dates correlate with the appearance of Imperial police markings on 1907s, especially for the Berlin police as noted in Maus' HWIS?
 

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So the Neue Modell Rheinmetall came and went and the 1907 stayed in production? How do the serial number range and dates correlate with the appearance of Imperial police markings on 1907s, especially for the Berlin police as noted in Maus' HWIS?
I think that the serialization has to be viewed as a work in progress. We'll try to reconcile datable examples to the "production schedule" and make adjustments.
 

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Discussion Starter #280
Ed, what do you think of this example, mainly the proof on the top of the breech block by the SN? Deactivated OLD SPEC WWI Imperial German Army Dreyse 1907 Pistol - Axis Deactivated Guns - Deactivated Guns

So according to these production scenarios, the Dreyse 1907 was being produced in the 1920s concurrently with the Neue Rheinmetall pistol? I guess that is plausible.

So the Neue Modell Rheinmetall came and went and the 1907 stayed in production? How do the serial number range and dates correlate with the appearance of Imperial police markings on 1907s, especially for the Berlin police as noted in Maus' HWIS?
Roy, this is my opinion, but I believe that at the time of the Neue Modells introduction, 1907s were still being produced. Think about it from an economic standpoint, why kill off a model that has done well in the past and is respected before the amount of success of your new model has been shown? Supposedly the Neue Modell was produced from 1922-1927. We know for a fact that 230XXX was produced in 1921/2. How do we explain the remaining 20,000 examples then if production ended with the introduction of the Neue Modell? We can't. Now, the end year of production is a hypothesis, and may be debatable. I would say that it is likely that the 1907 was produced, or at least assembled from parts for the entire duration of the Neue Modell's life, meaning that production would have been until at least 1927. I do want to emphasize the word assembled, as within the last 5000 or so produced, there seem to be some anomalies that may stem from assembly of complete pistols from previously rejected parts (upper frame legend stamping errors). Until we find more concrete evidence for the end of production time for the 1907, it will be difficult to come to a solid conclusion.

Hello
here is the photo of a 1920 stamped dreyse. Serial number 218353
Can we deduce that it was manufactured in 1920 or early 1921?
Hello!
That is an excellent piece! Does it have any other police markings besides the 1920 stamp? I am curious as if it has no other markings, then it may indicate that the Weimar government bought some 1907s new. I would say that it is fair to estimate that your example was produced around 1920-1921.
Thanks!
 
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