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Ed, what do you think of this example, mainly the proof on the top of the breech block by the SN? Deactivated OLD SPEC WWI Imperial German Army Dreyse 1907 Pistol - Axis Deactivated Guns - Deactivated Guns
Interesting. I can't make this proof out
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"C"? but it has that verticle bar. Then there is this
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What makes me think "Persian"? Am I crazy?



Roy, this is my opinion, but I believe that at the time of the Neue Modells introduction, 1907s were still being produced. Think about it from an economic standpoint, why kill off a model that has done well in the past and is respected before the amount of success of your new model has been shown? Supposedly the Neue Modell was produced from 1922-1927. We know for a fact that 230XXX was produced in 1921/2. How do we explain the remaining 20,000 examples then if production ended with the introduction of the Neue Modell? We can't. Now, the end year of production is a hypothesis, and may be debatable. I would say that it is likely that the 1907 was produced, or at least assembled from parts for the entire duration of the Neue Modell's life, meaning that production would have been until at least 1927. I do want to emphasize the word assembled, as within the last 5000 or so produced, there seem to be some anomalies that may stem from assembly of complete pistols from previously rejected parts (upper frame legend stamping errors). Until we find more concrete evidence for the end of production time for the 1907, it will be difficult to come to a solid conclusion.
Just as an aside ... if a company had the tooling and jigs and trained machinists to make a particular thing, and if that thing was selling, it seems to me that it would be malfeasance to stop production "just because". I could see manufacture trailing off for a good long time. That is to say, it would not surprise me terribly.



Hello!
That is an excellent piece! Does it have any other police markings besides the 1920 stamp? I am curious as if it has no other markings, then it may indicate that the Weimar government bought some 1907s new. I would say that it is fair to estimate that your example was produced around 1920-1921.
Thanks!
 

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Please help me, what is the "neue model"?
 

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The newly desiged pistol from Rheinmetall started in 1921 or so. Collectors call it the Rheinmetall but they referred to it as the Neue Modell.
 

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Can you post a picture? I am really at sea here.
 

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Jeebus. That is completely new to me. I am shocked.
 

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Discussion Starter #289
Ed, the photos of the Rheinmetall Neue Modell are correct, and I agree with your tooling and jigs comment. Regarding the deactivated Dreyse, I would be hesitant to claim it is Persian. Honestly, I have never seen a proof like that one before. Perhaps it is a proof to indicate that it was deactivated to a certain criteria? If not that, then what?

there are no markings besides the 1920 stamp
Terrific, thank you very much! Excellent example indeed!
 

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That odd proof wouldnt be a Brit deactivation proof would it? I thought I saw something like that before.

Curious though about the Czech purchase of 4700 odd Dreyses in 1922. Does the Czech information include data on the nature of the contract? Newly produced for that contract or surplus previously produced and sold at discount? You are assuming receipt as proof of production date which was not so stated in the information.
 

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Discussion Starter #291
That odd proof wouldnt be a Brit deactivation proof would it? I thought I saw something like that before.

Curious though about the Czech purchase of 4700 odd Dreyses in 1922. Does the Czech information include data on the nature of the contract? Newly produced for that contract or surplus previously produced and sold at discount? You are assuming receipt as proof of production date which was not so stated in the information.
I think it is plausible that the proof could be a British deactivation proof. Unfortunately, I am not well versed on the subject of deactivation.

Regarding the Czech contract, Doug would probably be best able to answer your question regarding the nature of the contract; however, we do know for a fact that the Czech contract was filled solely with a post-WWI variation of the Dreyse making it extremely unlikely that the Dreyses purchased were surplus and very likely were new manufactured pieces. Additionally, none of the Dreyses observed from the Czech contract have any kind of ownership markings besides the Czech applied markings, again reinforcing the notion that they were new manufactured pieces.
 

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Duplicate ... can you delete posts??
 

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Duplicate post
 

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A poster on the Historia forum has one of the references, the autobiography of a German soldier. He stated that the reference to the unit was in the translators preface!! In other words an unsourced ...contention. I bought the WW2 encyclopedia (the other reference) to see the nature of the reference in there. I will follow up when I get it.

It seems to me that someone made a good faith effort to add "something" to Wiki on the subject. Probably hoping that others would flesh it out and fix any errors. The problem is that this faulty entry became the or rather THE reference on the subject. As you can see with a search, it has been lifted, often word for word, and reproduced far and wide. And the references serve as references thus adding credibility.
I thought that I'd simply update my info in this thread, keeping it in one place so to speak.
I reeived my copy of the Third Reich Encyclopedia. Here is the reference ..
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"Search parties for insects that destroyed crops"????
Though there were undeniably Wachdienst units associated with the military before 1945 the idea of such a unit being assigned to, or having, a home base of Erkner sorta stretches credulity. Based on what I have been able to glean, I believe that the unit who was issued the gun with the slide in question was in fact some sort of home guard with duties less martial than those assigned the Volksturm. Odd that only two examples of Wachdienst arms with a local appended have shown up. I can think of some reasons for this but that is pure speculation. And, no, I do not think that the insects are particularly large in Erkner.
 

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Discussion Starter #296
Ed, I must've missed that one! Thanks for linking it. Also regarding this Dreyse: Deactivated OLD SPEC WWI Imperial German Army Dreyse 1907 Pistol - Axis Deactivated Guns - Deactivated Guns I believe the answer of the C/P proof is found in another thread...
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Now why would a pistol, devoid of any other British proof marks, have only this single proof on the breech block of all things? It is a WWI issued Dreyse, so perhaps it came back after WWI? Also, I believe the proofs on the right side of the pistol on the upper and lower are deactivation proofs, as the seller states that the pistol was deactivated in 1991, and underneath the letters in the proof, I believe is the numbers "91" for 1991.
 

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Hello
here is the photo of a 1920 stamped dreyse. Serial number 218353
Can we deduce that it was manufactured in 1920 or early 1921?
No.
The 1920 is not a date, but a Weimar Government Property Stamp.
All one can deduce from the 1920 PS is that the Dreyse was made before or during 1920.
 

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Ed, I must've missed that one! Thanks for linking it. Also regarding this Dreyse: Deactivated OLD SPEC WWI Imperial German Army Dreyse 1907 Pistol - Axis Deactivated Guns - Deactivated Guns I believe the answer of the C/P proof is found in another thread...
View attachment 639199

Now why would a pistol, devoid of any other British proof marks, have only this single proof on the breech block of all things? It is a WWI issued Dreyse, so perhaps it came back after WWI? Also, I believe the proofs on the right side of the pistol on the upper and lower are deactivation proofs, as the seller states that the pistol was deactivated in 1991, and underneath the letters in the proof, I believe is the numbers "91" for 1991.
Perhaps the Crown/C or G P has been "resurrected" for use on Deacts? No reason for a shotgun/muzzle loader black powder proof on a "modern" pistol, it would have been "nitro" proved if at all while in UK.
 

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Discussion Starter #299
Perhaps the Crown/C or G P has been "resurrected" for use on Deacts? No reason for a shotgun/muzzle loader black powder proof on a "modern" pistol, it would have been "nitro" proved if at all while in UK.
I had the same thought, but then how do you explain the letters/91 on the upper and lower? I would think a deactivation proof would be uniform everywhere on the firearm. Then again, I don't know much about British deactivation laws.
 

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Deacts have several "stamps" the letters/91 give some information and the last 2 digits of the year.
There are posts showing the several stamps on deacts, and they have changed over the years; generally they give the location of the work and the year.

Do a search for "deactivation UK" and you will find more threads- here is part of one:
"They are the British deactivation stamps put on by the London or Birmingham proof houses to show a gun is no longer a working firearm. They are stamped on the bits you can't own without a licence or own at all here in the UK. The D and A between 2 crossed swords stand for de-activated and the 13 is the year the stamp was applied. Our American friends don't have to worry about these things, or at least not yet. "
 
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