[Joop van de Kant]

Hi all,

One of my Luger collecting friends here in Belgium has a Dutch contract Luger, # 2156 with a DWM banner on the toggle.
'Rust', 'Geladen' and the crown above 'W' are all present.

According to the book 'The Dutch Luger' of Martens & de Vries, page 245, this weapon is one of 200 delivered in 1937 to the Dutch Navy, and the banner should be the Mauser one.

In Jan C. Still's 'Third Reich Lugers' page 178 also is stated that the 2nd variation from # 2129 should have the Mauser banner.

Is there anyone who could help us out in this matter?

 

[LU1900]

I think you do a mistake :your dwm is a M11 and page 245 on the year 1913 the pic is page 75
The dutch navy don't have the W crown and they have the mauser banner in p146 and they lack the grip safety present on the Wcrown

 

[Joop van de Kant]

LU1900,

Thanks for the tip. I will see my friend again next friday, and help him out of his dating problem.
Thank you!

 

[Guest]

Hi Guys, I'm new member, just bought a 1939 Dutch, 2nd variation in the last 30 guns made that year. Does you gun have "v" suffix ? I think it should. Also, What is the right style clip for a 2nd var. 1939 date Dutch?

 

[Joop van de Kant]

Hello Michael,

First things first, welcome to this board! When you have got the real Luger - fever, this is the place to enhance your knowledge and meet fellow collectors who are always ready to advice and help you with all kind of questions you may have.
You are now asking for specific comments about which markings a magazine for the Dutch Navy 2nd variation of the last delivery in 1939 should have.

As far as I know, (your Dutch Luger should have a SN between 2430v and 2654v and is a real and full Mauser made Luger) the 1939 delivery was the first to have Heanel (extruded) magazines. These were also the first not to have the wooden base that all Dutch Lugers before had kept since the first contract for the East Indies in 1910.

The problem is, that apart from this information (Dutch Luger, Martens & de Vries, page 218) there is not a clear view of what kind of marking or stamping should be expected. There were only 225 Lugers in that lot. And the next contract was never issued to the Dutch navy because WWII started in 1940.
May be one of the other collectors of Dutch Lugers is better informed on this.

It might be a good idea to start your own thread, just by repeating your question into a new 'Topic', but please, publish also some pictures of your 1939 Dutch Navy. It is rare and very special, I am sure all members would love to see this one of 225... Look into the Help section for learning how to publish pictures. It is really not very complicated.

(The Dutch KNIL Luger of this old Topic was later in a new Topic presented, as I was lucky enough to get it from my friend - collector) - you will find it above in the DWM contracts).

Best regards,

 

[Jan C Still]

There is some summary information on Dutch Lugers on page 291-305 of "Weimar Lugers"(1993). This was published before "The Dutch Luger" (1994)and the data/information may be dated.(I think that this information is clear and complete. However, it has not been checked against the information in "The Dutch Luger")

Accorting to Weimar Lugers page 293 Dutch Banner Lugers dated 1939 in the serial range 2430v-2654v were delivered June 1939. This was the last batch delivered to the Dutch. A 1940 dated Dutch Banner ,serial number 3182v, is shown on page (Figure 95a) 304. This Luger was not delivered because of the May 10,1940 invasion of Holland. Also, a 1937 dated Dutch Banner, serial number 2288, is shown on page (Figure 94) 303. It has a matching wood based magazine, bears the 'Mauser Banner', 'Rust' safety and 'C/U' stamps.

According to Weimar Lugers page 291, Dutch Lugers in the serial range 1-4000 with 'Rust' 'crown/W' and 'DWM' toggle were manufactured 1911-1914 by DWM for the Netherland Indies Army (M11). Serial number 2824 is shown (figure 90a) on page 295.

Jan

 

[Guest]

Thanks for the Welcome, looking forward to posting with you guy's. Now about the Clip, from what I have read, Aluminum bottom blued steel is right type for this period but wood or plastic with concentric circles would also be right???? Mike

 

[Guest]

PS. I got this gun from a local gunshop and I was the second person to look at it. The first guy said he had one just like it but went home to see if his was in better or worse condition. This gun is 95% + or -, he didn't come back to trade so I guess his was better. Imagine, two Dutch Luger in the same town of 125,000 people... Mike

 

[garfield]

quote:Originally posted by Michael Thomas

Now about the Clip, from what I have read, Aluminum bottom blued steel is right type for this period but wood or plastic with concentric circles would also be right???? Mike

Neither a concentric circle marked wood or plastic bottomed magazine would be proper with your Dutch Banner luger. As a matter of fact, there are no authentic P08 magazines with plactic concentric circle bottoms.

 

[Joop van de Kant]

Thomas,

I did some additional research on the magazines for Lugers, delivered by Mauser for the Dutch Navy. Examination of some Navy Lugers from fellow - collectors here, and reading the history of magazine - problems the Navy had with the wooden - base magazines between 1929 and 1936 I strongly believe that the following occurred:

1. From the first lot on (1928 - 77 pistols from DWM) the Dutch Navy received the magazines as they were issued in Germany for the P08, with the exception of the base. Germany used aluminium bases as from 1926, the Dutch Navy insisted on keeping the wooden base as the standard. Three magazines were send with each pistol.

2. After the first essential contracts made by Mauser were received (1930-1931), it showed out that there was a severe problem of reloading. After the first shot, frequently the second cardridge failed to feed. August Weiss reported this later, and also that the first batch of Mauser Lugers went back to Germany, were no failures could be found. The pistols were send again to Holland, but the same malfunctions persisted. Mr. Weiss went to the Netherlands, and he found out that the special way of shooting of the Navy (with a fully stretched arm) was the cause of the problems. In holding the pistol this way, the breech opened and closed faster.

3. During 1935 reportedly a solution was found. The authorities ordered five "improved" magazines for testing. Reconstruction of facts make believe, that this improved magazine was the new Haenel magazine.

4. The first time that the use of the new magazine is mentioned, is in the contract for the delivery of Navy Lugers in 1939 (225) and 1940 (1,000), the pistols were to be delivered without magazine, which might then have been ordered separetely from Haenel. (The last batch of 1940 was confiscated by the German army at the start of WWII).

5. I found four Dutch Navy Lugers at collectors here, they are all from contracts before 1939, two have a nickled body, two a bleued body and all have a wooden base, two with matching SN#'s.

I therefore strongly believe, that the 225 pistols of the 1939 contract were issued to the Dutch Navy, with a socalled "extruded" Haenel, ordered directly from Suhl, without a SN#, with an aluminium base. I do not believe that there is any acceptance stamp.

(Information can be found on pages 215 - 218 "The Dutch Luger" - Martens & de Vries").

Good Luck!

 

[Guest]

Thanks Joop, great info. I hope to post a picture of my find soon and I am enjoying getting back into collecting Lugers. I had given up for a while, nothing but junk at the shows it seemed. I just posted pic. of holster I am trying to ID, look it up and tell me what you think. Thanks again. Mike

 

[Joop van de Kant]

Mike,

Just a last bit of information. One of the member of this forum informed me, that he owns a complete rig with a 1939 Dutch Navy. SN# is matching this contract. It came with two blued Heanel extruded magazines, each with an aluminium base, unmarked. However, the bodies of the magazines are marked with fxo and Eagle 37. We both believe now that the lot of 450 - 675 (2 or three per Luger) was too small to produce non- army accepted magazines.
We hope now that another member who owns such a rig could confirm this.