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DUTCH SERVICE REVOLVERS

36K views 91 replies 21 participants last post by  jeanpearl 
#1 ·
Given the interest in the Colonial M1891 revolver, I thought it might be fun to post a few images of other Dutch service revolvers.




In this image, from the top, is an M1873 "Old Model" revolver. An early Nagant design. This example was made by J.F.J. Bar, Delft.

Next, is an example of the Colonial East Indies revolver M1891, first contract. As usual, it's in beat-up condition.

The third one down is a Belgian made 9.4 cal. Dutch police revolver designed to have a locking cylinder so that the first round would be a blank for warning, followed by a tear gas cartridge and then three live rounds. At least that's how it was explained to me by it's former Dutch owner. The big lever locks the cylinder in place. The first two chambers are numbered one and two with a directional arrow so there would be no errors in loading! This type of revolver is thought to have been issued to prison guards.

The fourth one down is a different model of 9.4 Dutch Police revolver - with a turning lanyard safety. A sort of hidden safety which locks the revolver. It is otherwise similar to the prison model, above.

Best regards,

Greg
 
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#2 ·
Hello...

Those are some interesting revolvers. Particularly #3...I never heard of a pistol that fires warning rounds. I should think it must be rare.

Most interesting.

Gary
 
#5 ·
Thank you for the kind comments about my Dutch revolvers. Other than the obviously unique modifications, the police models appear to be rather common Belgian copies of the Webley Bull Dog. They are five shot revolvers, much like the famous British revolver.

On the barrel of the prison model is the following, "NED WEPENMAGAZIJN - HARLEM HAAAG AMSTERDAM ARNHEM". The safety switch is marked "D2", maybe a model No.?

The top strap of the regular police model is marked, "NED WEPENMAGAZIJN HAARLEM S'HAGE" The side of the barrel is marked "A2"


Heinrich, Sorry to take so long to get back with you. Too much work, not enough weekend.

The left side of the M91 hammer has a crown over the letter S. The rest of the visible inspection marks are crown over B. This revolver is No. 3690.



The M73 has no letter M on it. It is No. 165.
Any additional information you might like to share regarding these revolvers would be appriciated.

Best regards,

Greg
 
#6 ·
Greg,

thank you for the fine photograph.
I guess the number 165 is not the serial number. Seems to be a registration number of the unit where the revolver was issued.
The serial number is to be find on the left side on the barrel.
My question concerning the letter M had the reason to check whether it
is probably a Navy revolver.
Bar delivered only 206 of the M/73 to the Dutch Admirality.

Your M/91 is the rare army model, precise made by the government factory WDW in Delft.
The parts were delivered by Bar also in Delft.
It is not to compare with the later shipped Vickers revolvers.
 
#7 ·
Hello Heinrich,

The number 165 on the M/73 is also found on the left side of the barrel as well as on the other parts. There are no other numbers. While the number 165 is so low as to suggest a unit registration number, I think it is in fact the serial number.

I appericiate the information regarding letter M and the information about my M/91!

By the way, the M/91 has the number 1902 stamped into the left side of the frame. Is that a date? a rack number or...?

Another question, how can I find a copy of your book?

Thanks,

Greg
 
#8 ·
Greg,

I worry about your no. 165.
Please let me know whether there is an inspection mark on the left side
of the hammer or on other parts.(crown with a letter)

M/91
The marking 1902 indicates the year of issue.

The book
I will contact two book dealers in Germany hoping that they have it on stock.
 
#9 ·
Hello Heinrich,



As indicated in the image, No.165 has a crown S on the hammer. Barrel inspection mark is a crown B. Sideplate inverted to show serial number.

Thank you for checking into the book, and for your comments regarding my revolvers.

Best regards,

Greg
 
#11 ·



Hello Heinrich,

Sorry to give you a headache with this old revolver. This image was taken yesterday, if it's not what you require, I will take another.

What part of the frame is the Navy mark on? Maybe it is so light that I can't see it well. Or, the person supposed to mark the revolvers went out for a beer and missed a few?

As you can see, the odd shaped cylinder pin spring is missing from the side. Since I never could find one, one day I'll have to get around to making one.

Thanks again,


Greg
 
#12 ·
Greg,
the Navy mark is always in front of the frame below the cylinder pin head.
On my Navy Bar there it is but light struck. I have no explanation in the moment what it could be.
I will discuss it with my friend and co- author Walter Dreschler.

The book on Dutch revolvers is only available at
Ulrich Götting
Dr. Eugen- Essig- Str. 28
D- 76316 Malsch
Germany
Fax: (49)7246 2589
price: Euro 59,-
S/H: surface mail 8,50 Euro
air mail: 25,- Euro

The other dealer is sold off.

Due to the missing spring I will contact you offline.
 
#13 ·
Heinrich

Thanks for the book info. I'll try to contact them about obtaining a copy.

Using magnification and good light, I looked closely for an M on the revolver, especialy around the cylinder pin head. Not even a slight imprint is in evidence. The headache is contagious!

Best regards,

Greg
 
#14 ·
Books

Looking for info on a 10.4 mm cartridge I founds these threads. A few weeks ago I was given about 75 copies of the "die militairrevolver der Niederlande" to sell. This is the stock of the Dutch antique arms collectors. If any of you are interested you can contact me. I will have to find out about shipping but will do my best to accomodate you and answer any questions.

Vincent
 

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#15 ·
Greg,
thank you for posting the additional photo of the M/73. The no. 165 is not the serial number but a rack or unit number.
The serial number is placed on the left lower barrel flat. Please check it and the I can give you some more information. If you want to know who inspected your revolver please let me know the letters with crown.

Your M/91 seems to be the classical Dutch model of the first shipment. To confirm this,
please look to right side above the rear side screw. Is there a small cut away with sharp edges for the loading gate in rear position? Or is this cut away rounded?
The S on the hammer indicates that the inspector Stratemakers did check the hammer.
 
#17 ·
Henrich,
I have an M/73 Dutch with a 6" barrel, #8630 and made by JFJ BAR/DELFT. I can see matching ser.#'s on the left of the barrel(octagon), trigger and front of the cylinder. Above the front of the trigger guard and directly below the large pin that secures the cylinder is an oval with either an "M" or a "W", depending on the angle that you hold the gun. If holding the gun so you're looking down the barrel, it appears as a "W". If you turn the gun up-side-down, it appears as an "M". Is this the navy mark you are looking for? Sorry that I can't do pictures.
Tim H.
 
#18 ·
Tim,
you have a Dutch Army revolver M/73 and the serial number matches to serial number range of the manufacturer J.F.J. BAR. He produces ca. 1300 pieces of a total quantity of 13028.
The W (it's not an M) indicates that the revolver was during his service in the armorers shop in Delft or later in Hembrug (close to Amsterdam) for repair or renewing the finish.
The contract of your revolver was signed at 25.May 1893.
 
#19 ·
Heinrich,
I appreciate your info. Thanks.
Tim
 
#20 ·
Greg,
after checking my documents and a longer discussion with my friend and Co- author Walter Dreschler we guess that the revolver with the unusual serial number was ordered and shipped to a government department (Ministries of Finance or Justice for prison guards).
It was common at that time that the final inspection of such guns was executed by the Army's inspectors.
 
#21 ·
Hi everyone,
I own a Dutch revolver which compares to Member 45Auto's M1873 Old Model. As I have no camera available at this time, I'll attempt a description.
On the right side in front of the cylinder, it reads "De Beaumont" from "Maastricht". On the left side of the trigger appears the SN "1010". In front of the frame below the cylinder pin head, there is a "W" in a circle and under it, but not centered and almost falling on the right, the letter "M". Although the cylinder is made for 9,4 mm cartridges, the barrel measures 0,5 inch wide (wow!) and is only two-inch long, which makes me think this revolver would have been used to fire something else than 9,4 mm bullets (rockets?). At the end of the barrel, the letters "IB" appear under a Crown and an "S": by the way, this Crown/S couple appears on each part of the gun. The "IB" letters (under a Crown/S) also appear on the cylinder. The letters "JH" appear on the right side of the hammer.
I have a few questions for which a knowledgeable gentleman like Heinrich could likely provide informative/accurate answers - other members may too, of course -:
-When was it produced, and how many revolvers with those specs were produced?
-How important was De Beaumont as a supplier for the service?
-Was this gun used by the Dutch Navy, or else?
-What was its use? (considering the size of the cylinder and the size of the barrel)
-What means "S" under the crown? And the crown itself?
-What means "IB"?
-What means "JH"?
-Could you clarify the reference to 9,4 mm as opposed to 10,4 mm (reference to Vincent's posting)?
What a great hobby! I look forward to reading you. Regards.
 
#23 ·
Hi,

I'm leaning heavily on Dreschler and Harder here:

IB 'Inwendig Beroest / Beschadigd'. A marking that signifies that the barrel has internal corrosion damage or wear.

the (W) mark is unknown but is thought to be a revision or reworking marking.
The Crown/S is the acceptance marking used by inspector mr. Stratemaker. between 1872 and 1885.

The pistols were intended for Cavelry, Field Artillery and Military Police.

Their book mentions a version called the 'Splitter' revolver. It's purpose wasn't known at the time of writing. Any photos?
 
#25 · (Edited)
Dutch Revolver

First I want to tell you that you have a so called "Gasrevolver" or tear gas revolver.
In 1931 this type was additionally issued to the "Marechaussee" that was a troop with
different tasks. At first it was the guard and "body guards" of the Royal Dutch family and also military police for all units as well as border police.

These first models had a capital letter as prefix at the serial number and no makers marking.

In 1932 the Ministry of War instructed the issue of gas revolvers for their Army units if the barracks have a gas chamber. These gas chambers were build to check the gasmasks and handling under combat conditions.
For this training additional revolvers were needed and the ministry decided to use those revolvers that were in heavy used condition. They have been modified and reworked in the A.I. (Artillery Workshop).
You revolver is one of these.
Each Division got 223 revolvers.
Now to the markings:
Vlim has already explained the IB and the inspection markings(letters with crown). Initially the revolvers were issued to the Dutch Navy. The letter M (Marine) indicates it. The W in a circle indicates a repair. Probably made in connection with the modification.
 
#26 ·
Dutch Revolver

First I want to tell you that you have a so called "Gasrevolver" or tear gas revolver.
In 1931 this type was additionally issued to the "Marechaussee" that was a troop with
different tasks. At first it was the guard and "body guards" of the Royal Dutch family and also military police for all units as well as border police.

These first models had a capital letter as prefix at the serial number and no makers marking.

In 1932 the Ministry of War instructed the issue of gas revolvers for their Army units if the barracks have a gas chamber. These gas chambers were build to check the gasmasks and handling under combat conditions.
For this training additional revolvers were needed and the ministry decided to use those revolvers that were in heavy used condition. They have been modified and reworked in the A.I. (Artillery Workshop).
You revolver is one of these.
Each Division got 223 revolvers.
Now to the markings:
Patrick has already explained the IB and the inspection markings(letters with crown). Initially the revolvers were issued to the Dutch Navy. The letter M (Marine) indicates it. The W in a circle indicates a repair. Probably made in connection with the modification.
 
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