[Joop van de Kant]

Hi to all,

I started collecting Lugers two years back, and I believed that this should be not to complicated having a far longer experience in collecting Swiss rifles and pistols. There are a few fine Swiss Lugers I had a good knowledge off, so it would mean more of the same...

So I thought, and in the meantime I got my lessons. Step by step I discover the whereabouts and this forum is for me a source of endless information. I thank every contributor for that.

Three weeks ago I could purchase a good looking DWM/Mauser Police Luger. With matching mag's and a matching holster. As this weapon has some fine features, I like to put some pics and a little bit of information to your knowledge.

The serial # is 462 t. It has DWM marked on the toggle, and Crown / N proofs on the receiver, barrel and breechblock. There is a Schiwy sear - safety, and also a disengaged Walther - magazine safety.

Two digit # (62) are found on the take down lever, the trigger, the rear toggle axle and below the rear sight.

The right side
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The left side
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The serial number on the frame yoke: # 462 t
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Unit mark: L.Hi.25. this stands for "Landespolizei" (Rural police) "Hildesheim", weapon # 25.
Hildesheim is nowadays a fairly prosperous town, 20 miles south of Hannover. Important industries like Blaupunkt and Bosch (both electronics) have plants here. Somehow this town must have had also a strategic value in WWII, as destructive mass - bombing by the Alies destroyed the centre and 50% of the buildings here on March 22nd 1945. All historic building have been restored, the last in 1980.
For those interested, visit the website http://www.hildesheim.de.

The front of the grip - strap
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Acceptance: WaffenAmt 66
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Proof: Crown N on receiver and breechblock
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Barrel: Crown N and serial #
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The top with the DWM banner
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The magazine - safety is partly present. I suppose that this device must have been extremely impopular, because in almost all known examples is has been disengaged. Well, if you think about the consequences of a need to change or fill a mag, having one round in the chamber and beeing not able to use that in a emergency... Many policemen must heve been thinking of that before they committed their little sabotage.
This pic gives a good idea how it was constructed. The idea was to block the trigger when the magazine was taken out.

Magazine - safety


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The magazines are matching. Someone did not like the square way # 1 was struck, so there is a better readable 1 on top of the old one.
Two magazines
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The holster is in nearly perfect condition.
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The back of the holster shows restitching on the left, and also the belt - straps have seen refitting. Between them the manufacturer is stamped: Franz Cobau Berlin 1929. Underneath there is an "L" in a sunburst, typical for police holsters of this period.
This brings me to the question mark in the header of this topic. I think it is rather strange that a 1929 holster was chosen for a apprx. 1933 weapon... Was it 4 years in stock?

The backside of the holster
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On the right are two stamps - proof of the fact that pistol and holster stayed together. The first, light stamp reads L.Hi.25. and
afterwards the serial # has been overstruck.

Two stamps
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Luger, holster, extra mag & tool
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Thanks for reading and viewing this stuff. Questions are welcome, and comments also. I am still learning by doing.

 

[Edward Tinker]

Joop, what a fine looking holster! Great presentation, appreciate the pictures and time you put into it.

Ed

 

[Jan C Still]

Joop
Excellent presentation of a 29 DWM, sn 462t. You are fortunate that it is matched to a 1929 dated police holster.

What is the basis of your statement that this is an " apprx. 1933 weapon". The Luger manufacturing equipment was transferred from DWM to Mauser in the Spring of 1930. The Landjagerei (that many of these Lugers are marked to) were armed with the P08 in 1929 and 1930. Also, (as you stated) some of these Lugers are matched to 1929 dated Landjagerei stamped holsters.

All indications are that Lugers in the "s", "t" and "u" serial range were manufactured by DWM (BKIW)during 1929 and 1930 mostly for the Prussian Landjagerei. Some were also manufactured for the Kriegsmarine, the Army, and the commercial market. See page 31- 34, 148-154 Weimar Lugers. Frontispiece 4a (page v)and page 153 of Weimar Lugers shows a 1929 dated holster, bayonet, tool and mags all matched to a 29 DWM, sn 4335u, stamped to L.D.111.(Landjagerei Dusseldorf weapon no. 111).

Also see: POLICE 29 DWM SN 8085t below, for more details on a Luger that is also stamped to the Landjagerei like yours.
Jan

 

[Joop van de Kant]

Jan,

Well, you know I do not have a copy of Weimar Lugers, and I use for dating purposes the good old Constanza 'World of Lugers - Proofmarks.
It is there that I got confused; the WaA66 eagle like I found on this Luger is dated by him twice in 1933:
page 101 item 114 (Simson!) and page 301 item 256 (Mauser/DWM).

Jan, try to push Walsworth to start printing Weimer Lugers right away... I need that book!

And yes, if I had spelled out the thread about the 1929 Police DWM # 8085 t, I would have been smart enough to understand that my # 462 t must have been produced before.

It is learning by doing, as I told, and I appreciate that you take the time to help me with it. B.t.w. - I have seen you typing the word 'Kreigsmarine' several times - it should read 'Kriegsmarine'.
(In the Netherlands, where I was born, we had to learn Dutch, English, French and German at school. Very useful, also in Lugerland).

Regards,

 

[Jan C Still]

Joop
"It is learning by doing, as I told, and I appreciate that you take the time to help me with it. B.t.w. - I have seen you typing the word 'Kreigsmarine' several times - it should read 'Kriegsmarine'."

I am a terrible speller. Spell checker in my word processing program saves a lot of mispellings, but I do not always use it when I post. Thanks for the correction.

The German Navy did not call itself the Kriegsmarine until 1935. Before 1935 it was called the Reichsmarine. I suppose, to be completely correct, German Navy pistols should be called Reichsmarine until mid 1935 and Kriegsmarine after mid 1935.
Jan

 

[Guest]

Jan, Could JOOP's Luger and mine be brothers out of the same batch? His 462t...Mine 6696t. And if that is the case then 8085t mentioned above would be one of the Batch Brothers also......What do you think? By the way My Luger does have a story, just trying to find my notes to make sure what I think is correct, is the way he aquired it. Have any idea how many matched Police rigs are known of? Thank you again. And hope your feeling well. Rgguards, Les

 

[Ron Smith]

Joop, Beautiful rig. I really like the holster. And I am with you on
re-prints on "Weimar Lugers". I need a copy also. PLEASE!!!

Ron

 

[Edward Tinker]

Les, matched rigs for police seem to be more common than army rigs. It is probably because the police were usually more containted, i.e. in the city or rural (not counting the ones that were transferred to the military and went to the Eastern Front). I have one police with a matching magazine, and another with two matching mags. It does occur, just not often.

Ed

 

[Joop van de Kant]

Les,
Yes, I am sure that many Lugers made for the Police were made by DWM in 1929 and 1930. Good to know that you have a 'brother' of my 462t out there...
I am not so sure that all 't' suffixes went out as a Police - Luger. See also the comments of Jan Still above about that.

Ron,
Thanks for the compliments made to my rig. Could we do together anything to help Jan in stimulating his editor/printer to produce the W.L. book? A petition or something?

Ed,
In my collection I have only four Lugers with 1 matching mag - a 1919/1920 with the sun+S, a Navy 06, an artillery 1917 + matching stock(!), a 'G' (WaA211 +), and the police rig with 2 matched mags showed here above. That's all folks, and a lot of orphans, screaming to find their parent Luger...
You know we were talking about that in another thread on this forum. It keeps me busy.

Best Regards to all,

 

[Jan C Still]

I had delayed reprinting Weimar Lugers until I determined that I had a reasonable chance of being around to sell them. Finally, I have started rehabilitation, am able to climb small hills, and may eventually be better than before.

I have started the reprint process for Weimar Lugers. It will take about a month. I often get complaints from collectors that they had to pay $100 or more for my books. Please inform your fellow collectors that some of these books are available from me at a total cost of $69 insured priority mail postage included. Go To www.stillsbooks.com

DocLes
The matched 29 DWM rigs, luger-holster, luger-holster-mag or mags, or luger-holster-mag or mags and tool are the more common matched Luger rigs found in collections today. Ed covered the likley reasons.

The matched holsters are almost always 1929 dated new manufactured police holsters. Most bear the police starburst acceptance. 1929 is the first date of the appearance of these police style holsters.* These holsters were fabricated for the 29 DWM Lugers intended for the police.

Joop's 462t, your 6696t and my 8085t are indeed of "the Batch Brothers". All are Prussian State Police Landjagerei (L) stamped and bear the E/WaA66 acceptance stamp. Some have a blank middle toggle link, others do not.

Am looking forward to your Lugers story.
Jan

* One Police style holster is reported dated 1928. A photograph would be most helpful.

 

[Joop van de Kant]

Hello Jan,

First of all; congratulations with the fysical improvements you report here !
Keep climbing small hills, and keep the Alaskan High's for next summer.>

I keep on sending newbees (I believe I am still one myself) to the book topic back down here on this forum. You wrote earlier that you had to do some packing of books when they released you back to us all. So it seems to work.
Be assured that the mayority of the forum members will continue to do so. The new release of 'Weimar Lugers' is a perfect reason to emphazise our efforts.

As soon as 'WL' are ready - please say so in the book topic. Be prepaired for a rush-sale, you will have some busy weeks!

Best wishes,

 

[tomathvl]

$100.00 for Weimar Luger would be a good deal.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=2255540741&ssPageName=STRK:MEDW:IT

 

[Jan C Still]

I have never asked for backing to print my books. I print one title, wait until its sold out, then use the profits to print another. It may take some time between reprints but it makes it easier on my pocketbook.
Jan

 

[tomathvl]

It appears that the ole communications bug has crawled into this link. My only point was that based on the prices the book dealers and what eBay was bringing based on the link, $100.00 was really a good deal. I appreciate what Jan has done and continues to do for the Luger collectors of the world. I know it's none of my business but IMHO based on the quality of the products Jan sells, he should raise his prices. It's obvious folks will pay for quality.
Tom

 

[Guest]

Here we go again.....I said before, the more you know about lugers, the more questions arise. I was looking over pics of Joop, and your 29DWM's, and I noticed than on the left hand side, where the C/N is. Has no Ser#. While mine is stamped with my Ser#. Why is this? Any idea?

 

[garfield]

quote:Originally posted by DocLes

Here we go again.....I said before, the more you know about lugers, the more questions arise. I was looking over pics of Joop, and your 29DWM's, and I noticed than on the left hand side, where the C/N is. Has no Ser#. While mine is stamped with my Ser#. Why is this? Any idea?

Can't tell you why, just that most of these '29 DWMs were marked in the commercial style (hidden #'s)while a few, such as yours, are marked in the military style. I have Ser# 4158t, grip strap stamped to the Landjagerei, Luneberg. It is marked as Joops, in the commercial manner.

 

[Guest]

Thank you for the information. Wish I could get my hands on DWM's production list. If there is still such a thing. Reguards, Les.

 

[Edward Tinker]

Les, most if not all records are long gone. So, we have been left with fragments, i.e. the police records of some markings, some records of when sear safeties were required, etc. But the figuring out of serial numbers has been painstakeingly compiled by collectors in many countries, based against proofs and acceptance and also dates on the receivers. A very long process that we as younger collectors can draw upon, and then there are still questions.
Les, get one of the first luger books, either Luger Variations by Mr. Jones, or The Luger Pistol by Fred Datig and you can see the progression that many collectors have made over the years. Both of these are good books, but have mistakes and assumptions, but you have to take into consideration that they are over 40 years old! So, simply put, that Jans boks are the result of years of research and weeding out many of the mistakes and assumptions made, and yes you will find mistakes in his books, but most are very minor. This is simply due to the research of years of time by him and many other collectors.

Ed

 

[Harry]

Here are some photos of a police luger rig with a 1929 holster marked to the pistol.
It is s/n 2233u with two matching mags and the tool marked to the pistol. It was issued to Landjagerei Aronson ? It was posted on this site several years ago before the web site crash.

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[donmaus]

Harry,

An excellent rig. The unit mark is from the Landjägerei of the district of Arnsberg in the Prussian province of Westfalen (Westphalia).

I am confused. I found your earlier post about this rig and the photo of the grip strap in that thread shows it clearly to be L.Ar.279. whereas this post shows L.Ar.347. Both threads have photos clearly showing L.Ar.279. on s/n 2233u. Could you clear this up?

Assuming the photo showing L.Ar.347. is of another pistol, could you provide some details about that pistol for my database of Weimar police unit marks: s/n & suffix; toggle logo; sear and/or mag safeties; proof/acceptance marks?