[Joop van de Kant]

To all,

Please, help me out of this puzzle...
I bought today an old warhorse Luger which on first sight looked quite common. After a close look to the proof marks it seems less common, please examine the following details:
1. Receiver has a notch in front of the chamber, only found on artillery - models and reads 1920 above 1918.
2. Proof marks on right side read: Crown above 'B', 'O</u>', and 'P', followed by eagle Erfurt model. (Costanzo page 294 # 151).
Crown 'RC' above first mark.
3. On front of trigger gard: Crown 'RC' and Crown 'O'.
4. Serial # 5056 r
5. All parts matching 56, and almost all parts proof marked with crown 'B' or Crown 'J'
6. Barrel 4", # 5056 no suffix, Crown 'B', Crown 'RC' eagle Erfurt.
7. Front grip strap marked 'A./J.R.10.9.' (Ausbildung Infanterie Regiment 10 waffe 9.) = Infantery School Regiment 10 weapon 9.
8. Back strip, just above lanyard loop marked 'S. 9'
9. Toggle marked 'DWM'.
10. No sear safety.
11. No rust pitting, just normal (holster) wear for this age.

Well, I have never seen so many little proof marks on a Luger. And I am really puzzled about the mix of an Erfurt 1918 artillery receiver (they did build them only in 1914) and a DWM toggle.

Could anyone help me out here? I would be also gratefull if someone knows about the 'S. 9' marking on the backside.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Joop van de Kant]

Some pictures.

May be the next pictures might help to understand my questions above,
is this an artillery receiver made by Erfurt?
And what might S. 9 on the back side mean?

Left side
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Right side
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The chamber with rear-sight notch, toggle.
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Proof marks from Erfurt
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Trigger guard
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Regiment Marks front grip strap
Download Attachment: DSC00106.JPG
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Marking S. 9 on top back grip strap
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I hope that these pics might help someone to figure this puzzle out...

 

[Edward Tinker]

Joop, a bit of help? More than likely it started out as a Erfurt Artillery and was later converted to a 4 inch during a Weimar rework. Here is a 1916/1920 that I used to own; http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=755

Rather than turn in the artillerys to be destroyed to the Allied Commssion after WW1, many were converted, and probably at that time the DWM toggle was added. A new toggle was required with a rear sight (artillerys had the sight on the barrel) and the rework personnel used a DWM toggle on hand, or supplied by DWM.

Ed

 

[keoki7]

Ed, I doubt that it started out as an artillery, if indeed the barrel extension is Erfurt, since Erfurt made LP08's in 1914 only. Erfurt did, however, continue to cut the extension for the rear sight.

If the barrel extension is DWM, then it was an artillery.

 

[Joop van de Kant]

Ed, George,

Thank you for helping me to solve this puzzle.
The 4" barrel bears a proof mark of Erfurt style eagle, as found in Costanzo's book of proof marks.

George has a lot more experience than I do, so I might drop to the conclusion that this is an Erfurt 1918 4" Luger, for wich they used a receiver with a notch for an artillery sighted barrel.

George, do you know other examples of this combination? If so, please indicate where I could find a pic of it. Thank you in advance!

 

[Jan C Still]

Joop
Thanks for your detailed photographs and presentation.

Based on your photographs and description of this Luger, almost everything (barrel, receiver, frame, extractor, sideplate) appears to be Erfurt except the DWM middle toggle link. The various parts bear the Erfurt type acceptance stamps.

It appears a proper 1918 Erfurt (most have an artillery cut)had the middle toggle link removed and replaced by a DWM link. The proper number "56" number may have been applied to the DWM link by an armorer during the Weimar Era.

"7. Front grip strap marked 'A./J.R.10.9.' (Ausbildung Infanterie Regiment 10 waffe 9.) = Infantery School Regiment 10 weapon 9."
Is it possible that your unit mark signifies Ausbildungs-Bataillon. Based on Gortz page 71 and Still page 192. The S.9 is likley a provisional marking applied before the 'A./J.R.10.9.'was applied to the front strap. (See explanation of the application of the same type of provisional marking under: 1920/1918 ERFURT, M.W./J.R.21.42.. in this same Forum section.
Jan

 

[Joop van de Kant]

Jan,

Thank you again for helping me this time to understand the mismatch of this Luger. Once again I learn that reading and research is essential to our passion.

 

[keoki7]

Joop, I can not add to Jan's posting. You have a nice Luger with a very interesting unit mark.

 

[Joop van de Kant]

Geo, Ed,

I have been reading and viewing through the archive topic Ed suggested above. It has been very helpfull to my understanding of the rather common practice of using any availabe parts during the second half of 1918. Erfurt had or a stock of Artillery receivers, or decided to produce receivers with the notch for all Lugers. That gave them the flexability to produce both on a short notice. This policy was also followed for the stock - lug, by DWM and Erfurt.

Thanks again for your very valuable comments.

Regards,