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Its interesting how the test proofs appear hand applied, and I was wondering whether these were definate slave labor assembled?
Isnt the E/77, and [Steyr] 623 typical military proofs? No involvement of SS in their building, with Steyrs history of working with the SS?
Andy


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Andy,
* Up until the 2/J block, all Radom's in the German occupation series had parts manufactured in Poland...[77], then assembled and inspected in Austria...[623]. The barrel was manufactured at Steyr to prevent (minimize) partisan component theft and assembly in Poland I'm told.
* After the 2/J, I believe the Radoms were made, assembled, and inspected only in Austria; although some components in stock could still bear the e/77 Radom part's inspector's acceptance. By the 2/K block even the small parts were likely all Steyr made/accepted.
* OBTW: Do you think your 2/C block was made about 3/44?? I've estimated my 2/F1220 to have been assembled about 7/44.
* My understanding of the pistol issue pecking order is:
- The Radom, like the Browning 640(b), was a secondary (non-indigenous) 9mm against the German produced standard issue P.08/P.38.
- If the Army could not fulfill its quota with standard issue pistols, then, the secondary pistols had to suffice for Heeres issue.
- Where Army needs were satisfied by standard issue pistols, the secondary pistols were then alloted by requisition request date to Navy, Luft, SS, Police, etc.
- As in most wars, influencial intervention, political force, war contigencies, misappropriation, and whim intervened to alter the allocation hierarchy.
* I know of no authenticated documentation linking Radom assembly directly to SS run activities. Certainly, each faction of the German war machine was closely watching arms production with an aim to influence allocation toward their needs. I suspect it always more melodramatic to advance such inter-agency/arms maker associations to augment the hardware's stone cold silence.
* Trust this helps.
 

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Andy,
* Up until the 2/J block, all Radom's in the German occupation series had parts manufactured in Poland...[77], then assembled and inspected in Austria...[623]. The barrel was manufactured at Steyr to prevent (minimize) partisan component theft and assembly in Poland I'm told.
* After the 2/J, I believe the Radoms were made, assembled, and inspected only in Austria; although some components in stock could still bear the e/77 Radom part's inspector's acceptance. By the 2/K block even the small parts were likely all Steyr made/accepted.
* OBTW: Do you think your 2/C block was made about 3/44?? I've estimated my 2/F1220 to have been assembled about 7/44.
* My understanding of the pistol issue pecking order is:
- The Radom, like the Browning 640(b), was a secondary (non-indigenous) 9mm against the German produced standard issue P.08/P.38.
- If the Army could not fulfill its quota with standard issue pistols, then, the secondary pistols had to suffice for Heeres issue.
- Where Army needs were satisfied by standard issue pistols, the secondary pistols were then alloted by requisition request date to Navy, Luft, SS, Police, etc.
- As in most wars, influencial intervention, political force, war contigencies, misappropriation, and whim intervened to alter the allocation hierarchy.
* I know of no authenticated documentation linking Radom assembly directly to SS run activities. Certainly, each faction of the German war machine was closely watching arms production with an aim to influence allocation toward their needs. I suspect it always more melodramatic to advance such inter-agency/arms maker associations to augment the hardware's stone cold silence.
* Trust this helps.
 

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RockinWR

In your reply to Andy you stated the following:

* After the 2/J, I believe the Radoms were made, assembled, and inspected only in Austria; although some components in stock could still bear the e/77 Radom part's inspector's acceptance. By the 2/K block even the small parts were likely all Steyr made/accepted.


I own a type III Radom J0XX2 I believe was put together in Austria, it has some unusual things about it. There are no 77's on left side of slide or frame. It has a 77 after serial number on right side. Finish is blue and very nice, also machining very good except for lower portion of front slide and trigger guard sides. It has two upside down and one right-side up 623's on left side of slide and one waa623 on forward trigger guard left side. One additional thing is the mag it has a 623 on lower left side but has the regular type follower and nice finish. All serial numbers match, another weird thing is it looks like there was a 3 at the end of main serial number J0XX23 that was smacked to remove can just barely be made out. It also has brown fb and vis grips.

Jack
 

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Andy,
* Yes, "bnz" marked Radoms are very, very late assemblies & only a few were marked as such.
* Jan Still, Axis Pistols, Pg. 74 shows a picture of one (2/K1699), as well as, an unmarked slide example (2/K1852).
- Jan goes on to say this "Grade III, S/Var. 3 has the "bnz" as the only marking on the left slide; phosphate finish; some not having slide serrations; E/623 acceptance stamp. Reported 18 in the 2/K1440-2/K2400 S/N range. Estimated production=1000."
* Robert J. Berger, The Radom Pistol, Pg. 35 shows his "bnz" example bearing no slide serrations. Unfortunately no S/N is given for this example.

Jack,
* So much for my earlier generalization for Andy on what had to be a very chaotic period in Radom assembly. Murky doings going on at that time at best with most documentation lost/buried.
* Yours is a wonderful example of an all Steyr assembled/accepted Radom & in the very early 2/J block as well.
- Jan, ibid, calls these a Grade III, S/Var.2 and states "Steyr production with military blue and phosphate finish, only E/623 acceptance stamps on slide & trigger guard, crude wood grips are common; especially rough machining annd fit, S/N range 2/B2000-2/B6000 and 2/H8900 to 2/K9150. Production about 22,250."
- As there were no 2/I block S/N Radoms, I surmise this implies most 2/J & all 2/K blocks were Steyr assembled along with the 4k of the 2/B block to arrive at the 22.5k quoted.
- Parathetically, as you probably know, the current high Radom-Steyr assembly number has now risen to at least 2/K9609 reported by Al Hoffmeyer.
* The latest Steyr (eagle/623) AND Radom (eagle/77) stamped pistol is reported as 2/J4610 by Mr. Leszek Erenfeicht (aka-Leer) who is the vice-editor in charge of the Polish gun magazine STRZAL; Warsaw, Poland.
* Discussions with Mr. Hoffmeyer surfaced his opinion the Radom factory was in the 2/J block when the Germans disassembled the Radom facility, packed up all components/machinery/tools, broom swept the plant, and shipped the entire lot in rail box cars to Steyr late in 1944. Since the Russians occupied the Radom plant in mid Dec., 1944, both Al & Mr. Berger felt this must have occurred sometime in November, 1944. A gap in the late 2/J block of reported S/N's makes the arrival of this shipment an unknown. It is one facet of Radom research Al has been pursuing. Any late 2/J block assembly with e/77 marks needs to be reported to Al as evidence this shipment made it to Steyr.
* Steyr was in control of the Radom plant and of the allocation of S/N blocks for assemblies. As Steyr was reported by Mr. Berger to have begun complete Steyr assemblies in as early as June/July of 1944, your example, then, probably ever so slightly preceded the box car pistols. I surmise your very early all e/623 2/J with "e/77 mark after the frame S/N" frame was likely an earlier shipment and was in the "warehouse" at Steyr. I have no way to prove it though as the frame's rail manefest must have slipped though my filing system somehow.
* Have you further information/thoughts on this transitional period of Radom pistol assemblies?
* Thanks for sharing this example with us.
 
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